S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

↑ SixOfWands

Fri, Oct 15 2021, 2:09 pm

meiravit wrote:

Yes, but I'm a fanatical intolerant black hatted right winger. Smile

I've already been branded as intolerant. We don't claim to welcome everyone because we have standards.

But if MO claim to welcome everyone, why is this issue different?

Well, I don't know you, so I've never branded you as a fanatical or intolerant. Should I?

Back in the day, there were any number of people for whom, like the old joke, the shul they didn't attend was Orthodox. They kept strictly kosher. Wouldn't dream of turning on a light on Shabbat. But if the man had to go into work after Shachrit on Shabbat, well, what can you do. So no, they weren't fully frum. But they still believed in the Orthodox understanding of halacha.

But your standards, as you express them, would tell these people to take a hike. If you can't do it all, you can't do anything. "We have standards." If you can't do it all, then you're not welcome to do anything.

Forgive me, but I don't think that's what Hashem wants.

And recall that Conservative and Reform Judaism are not simply "less observant." They are "differently observant." A Conservative Jew might eat a certain type of cheese, or eat swordfish, not because they don't want to keep kosher, but because they believe that those things are kosher, even though Orthodox halacha says otherwise. And a Reform Jew would tell you that she is completely observant, but kashrut is no longer required, and that driving to a national park for a hike is a perfect Shabbat activity.

So yes, to summarize, we welcome those who are not fully frum.

And I try not to judge those who hold differently than I do. I understand that your rabbis don't agree with my rabbis. That's fine. The hypocrisy comes in when people demand respect from those who don't agree with them, while lacking respect for those with whom they themselves don't agree.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Oct 15 2021, 2:31 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I just heard a shiur from Rabbi Shraga Kallus that I'll try to give over a part of:
The Ponovezher Rav was in the US and attended a debate between a noted Reform rabbi and the head of the Orthodox Union. The Reform rabbi got the first question and asked if the OU pres. worked on Shabbos. He hemmed and hawed and reluctantly admitted that he did, he had a wife and children, what could he do. The rabbi said, you may sit down.
The Ponovezher Rav then asked, might I speak? He then asked the rabbi the same question. The rabbi said, of course he's not shomer Shabbos.
The Ponovezher Rav then said, you may sit down. And he told the audience, you might think they said the same thing. But while I'm not condoning what the pres. did, he does it reluctantly, with a krechtz. He doesn't gleefully crow about it.

Sorry I can't tie it up more neatly than that. If I have time I'll listen again.

Your rabbanim and mine might disagree on some things but they both go through the halachic process and share beliefs in fundamentals so I'll respect the conclusions of other rabbanim. Sadly, I can't extend that same courtesy to non-Orthodox clergy.

have a wonderful Shabbos!

ETA: the idea behind the shiur was, how could Avraham Avinu not be mekarev his own nephew? There are two ways to reject, and Lot was beyond the pale.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sat, Oct 16 2021, 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ LovesHashem

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 11:00 am

PinkFridge wrote:

What a wonderful story. I personally know Rabbi Kallus.

And PinkFridge, I just don’t think we can ever see eye to eye if you think reform and conservative movements have validity to them.

Do I think these people are horrible people? No.
Are they going to hell forever because they don’t keep Torah and mitzvot properly? No.

Hashem judges people based on their life circumstances, their knowledge, their abilities, etc.

Most of my extended family is not religious. I explained to my Grandmother once simply that I don’t judge anyone. If you ask me it’s okay not to keep shabbos, of course I will say it’s assur and against the Torah. But that’s between those people and Hashem. It’s not my place to judge others, Hashem does that. I don’t look at anyone less than no matter what they are, reform, conservative, etc

But I can’t tell someone that I believe it’s the right Derech or part of orthodoxy. Let’s be real here.

I respect and love my grandmother. But I don’t trust her kashrus or in areas of Halacha. I totally respect her, I mean she knows more Yiddish than me!

She’s welcome to make her hand grated famous potato kugel in my kitchen and I’ll eat it just fine!

I don’t judge others, but if you ask my to give validity to their decisions and say they are in line with Halacha, I can’t. And when you let people in your community who aren’t frum and they call themselves MO, you can’t be surprised when yeshivish people think not all MO people keep Halacha.

And when someone tells me they are MO I have no clue what Halacha they keep, if any.

Which leads to beg the question, what seperates you from open orthodoxy? The values and hashkfah your Rabbanim teach?

aquad ↓

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 1:01 pm

I haven't read all of what was written previously, so I'll just add my two cents.

I am (right wing) Modern Orthodox. I went to MO schools, seminary, and then Stern (YU's women's college).
Modern Orthodoxy (which I'll define as Torah U'Madda for the sake of this post) is very different from Torah Im Derech Eretz (ie Rav Hirsch). Torah U'Madda views the secular subjects as part of the Torah learning- you learn biology to better understand Hashem's creation, history/Jewish history to better understand where we come from, literature and psychology to better understand how Hashem created us. (There's a beautiful essay by Rav Aharon Lichteinstein, the son in law of Rav Soloveitchik, about this.)
Torah Im Derech Eretz historically views secular knowledge as separate from religious endeavors- which is the reason that when the boys in Rav Hirsch's school learned secular subjects, they did not wear kippot.

We believe in halacha without the narishkeit. The color of your shirts or the fabric of your skirts doesn't matter, so long as you are dressed appropriately and respectfully. And yes, 13 ikkarim are a given. So is Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Berura.

We have strong community values of being as open a tent as possible. So women wearing pants or someone driving to shul on shabbos isn't a dealbreaker for community involvement or sending their children to the local shul. Any person who wants to daven in shul is welcome, any child who wants a Jewish education will get one. I personally don't eat at people's homes whose kashrus I don't trust, but everyone makes their own cheshbon. BUT my decision to trust their kashrus usually has very little to do with how the woman dresses; I know many women who have partial hair coverings, wear pants, etc- but can quote me the siman in the Shulchan Aruch about bishul on shabbos. I am willing to accept that they may use kulos that I personally don't use (like how small to cut cucumbers, when to put up the chulent before shabbos), but I know that it is kosher and community cohesion is a value.

And with all this said, sometimes it is difficult. My children attend community schools- if the parents are willing to follow the rules while the children are in school, nobody cares what they do outside of school. I do sometimes need to call up parents and ask about the source of the cake at a birthday party. And I do gently try to steer my kids to more religious friends, and sometimes it doesn't work. And that's ok- I accept the tradeoff of my child's exposure to less than ideal content, possibly food of questionable kashrus, and difficult questions from them about their friends, because 1. the community value of keeping irreligious Jews close is more important and 2. this is giving my children valuable skills for later in life. My children are growing up knowing how to navigate communities not exactly like them, and how to stand their ground for what they believe in.

There were some posts earlier about Yeshivish communities comfort with white collar crime vs the Modern Orthodox world. To put it simply: Shalom Rubashkin would never EVER have received accolades and been called an inspiring figure if he was Modern Orthodox. Yes, his sentence was too harsh, and if he was Modern Orthodox the community would have done what it could to get him out (similar to Jonathan Pollard)- but the idea of a white collar criminal who has not publicly done teshuva being called a tzaddik is laughable and bizarre.

We have strong Zionist feelings, typically described as the founding of the state being Reishit Smichat Geulateinu. (For some background, read Kol Dodi Dofek by Rav Soloveitchik.)

There is a strong emphasis on the education of women in religious topics (which doesn't by definition include Gemara, but very often does). While women do not have a chiyuv in Talmud Torah, they do have a chiyuv in Ahavas Hashem- and how do you do Ahavas Hashem if not by learning Torah? Women are encouraged to intellectually engage with texts, both Tanach and Halacha.

Da'as Torah- we ask Rabbonim shailos about religious questions. Whether that's the simple question of is the pot treif, or more complex shailos. But we don't go to a Rabbi about non-religious marital issues, which school to send a child to, or the best community to live, just because he's a Rabbi. We may consult the Rabbi because he has insider information (he may have a good therapist to recommend, or knows more about schools/communities than what the average person hears on the street), or the Rabbi has a close relationship with us, but it's an eitzah and non-binding.

This was a LOT and not very coherent or eloquent. For a passionate and eloquent defense of Modern Orthodoxy, I recommend Leaves of Faith by Rav Aharon Lichtenstein.

↑ aquad ↓

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 1:22 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

You know I think there is a big divide between MO in America - especially out of town America and in Israel.
In my world, people who identify as dati or MO are shommer Shabbat and kashrut (even if due to ignorance or disregard they might fudge here or there - but I suspect the same is true for yeshivish and chassidish world), so no I wouldn’t investigate. But maybe if I lived in a more mixed community in the Diaspora I would. I just don’t know.
When I was a tween my Bnei Akiva group was invited to spend Shabbat in Ashdod with another Bnei Akiva group there. We were sent to different homes in pairs.
We came from an Ashkenazi bubble where everyone was frum but apparently the community that hosted us were really more traditional Sefardi. The homes were completely kosher, everyone went to shul, but not all the homes kept Shabbat like we did.
The mother in the family I was staying by washed the floors on Shabbat afternoon. I was shocked.
But do you know what? I don’t think it was a bad experience and I’m happy we were sent there.
I’m happy we were introduced to a way of life that was outside our bubble and outside our comfort zone and I hope I didn’t offend my hosts by being shell-shocked.
I wish my kids also have the opportunity to see the genuine emunah and traditional observance I experienced that Shabbat.

Rav Ovadiah Yosef allowed for washing the floors of the house on shabbat if it was very dirty and you only used a squeegee (nothing that would be absorbant)- http://halachayomit.co.il/he/d.....=4580

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 5:28 pm

Fox wrote:

Here's the part where we get into having one's cake and eating it, too.

All of us can agree that most people are hypocritical to one degree or another and that most people commit acts that are contrary to their derech, whether intentionally or not.

But when MO-affiliated Jews both publicly and repeatedly express ideas or engage in behavior that is contrary to anything connected with Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz while claiming support from their community, no one should be shocked that other MO Jews and Modern Orthodoxy itself comes under suspicion.

As far as I'm concerned, that may be a fair trade-off. I believe there is room for a bigger tent than most RW groups allow. But then, no one in the big tent can claim offense at potentially being regarded as less stringent.

The best argument that MO posters on Imamother could make is, "Yes, we know that welcoming everyone regardless of observance and hashkafa means that our own observance is sometimes doubted, but we're willing to put up with that in order to maintain a big tent."

Alas, that never seems to be the argument that is made.

I really don’t think things are as different between MO and other groups as you are painting things in this regard. As you said Torah Umadda is the guiding philosophy of MO. If you embrace that you are in. We are a more ideologically based group, perhaps.

But is it so different in other groups? If you embrace kollel learning and that whole system, you are in with yeshivish, if you embrace chassidish life you are chassidish. And yea, I get that levush is much more important in other groups, it’s more key to group acceptance in Y and C.

To be honest, the way you feel about MO ppl not speaking up against other MOs who are lax with observance, sometimes we feel that way when other groups protect child molestors or defend other criminal behavior which I have seen many times on this site.

Lastly, a) not every MO shuls have members who drive on shabbos. To me that is the old time model where traditional ppl when to orthodox shuls because their parents did. Nowadays those ppl go to conservative or reform temples largely. There are many thriving MO shuls where everyone is very involved and committed. B) though there is no daas Torah in the way other groups have it, MO rabbis tend to be part of the same organization and usually present a unified front on issues. For example, during Covid MO rabbis came together to encourage keeping Covid precautions, and later to get vaccinated.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 6:23 pm

aquad wrote:

Interesting. I thought TIDE viewed general knowledge as a "handmaiden" to Torah, helping us understand the world we live in etc. just as you say. But there is ikar and tafel, lead and supporting roles.
Re Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, zt"l: if you want to hear or read elegance in language, dive in. (Though as a very very bright younger talmid chochom said, commenting on Rav Aharon's hesped for his father-in-law, zt"l, he didn't understand a word. And it was in English Wink

)

↑ keym

Sat, Oct 16 2021, 6:29 pm

aquad wrote:

This is very coherent and clear. Thank you for writing it up.
I'm curious. When you say you're RW MO, what about you makes you identify as RW? Is it certain halachic standards that you keep (tznius or hair covering, certain kashrus standards, etc)? Is it because of your alma mater (YU/Stern)? Is it because you don't have certain hashkafic beliefs mainly due to women (Gemara, laining megillah)?

↑ aquad

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 12:52 am

keym wrote:

It's a very good question, and I don't really have a definitive answer.
There isn't one real qualifier/disqualifier to where someone falls out on left/right/centrist spectrum. I know plenty of very right wing families where the woman will wear a hat and show her hair. I know lots of families that are probably more left wing where the woman wears a full kisui rosh. Lots of right wing families where women learn lots of Gemara and lead women's megillah reading, and plenty of left wing families where women don't. And none of this has to do with the alma mater- plenty of very strong MO people don't go to YU because of finances, professional aspirations, personal circumstances, etc.

I think one of the points of where it breaks down is how a person/family views (in a l'chatchilah circumstance, not taking into account all the possible b'dieved circumstances) on coed education and camps for teenagers (not talking about below fourth graders who don't have hormonal urges yet or 20 somethings who need to get married).

↑ PinkFridge

Sun, Oct 17 2021, 5:27 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I know everyone SHOULD care, but many do not even have Israel on their radar as something to care about, the state or the land. Ive heard it from people. Its a bit sad, to be honest.

Don't people daven for the return to EY which should at least make them think about it?

Rav Schwab says that the bracha of Sim Shalom (as well as the mincha/maariv version) can be divided into thirds: Davening for inner peace for ourselves and others, davening for peace between us all, and davening for safety for Jews everywhere.

OK, chevra, now that you know this abstract of a beautiful piece from Rav Schwab on Prayer (as is every word of this sefer) when you daven for safety for Jews everywhere, think of EY.

I can quote Michal Horowitz who I think was quoting Rabbi Lamm, z"l about returning to EY, either because we were forced to by persecution or, like the dove, fly back happily and lovingly.

I can also quote Rabbi Yisrael Reisman (who often quotes the Chasam Sofer who was quite the Zionist in the purest, non-ideological sense) about the incredible bracha we have now of access to EY, and how its rebuilding now could be stages of nevuah about return (without going all aschalta d'geulah, for those who are uncomfortable with that talk. This is an Agudah rav and RY speaking). He is also baffled by people who go on expensive international vacations that are not EY.

What you say is sad but - I'll use the word again - baffling.