S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

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↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:23 am

singleagain wrote:

I doubt these people would self-identify as MO but they wouldn't be kicked out of the MO shuls and schools

Multiple people here have said they consider these people to be MO. I don’t know a whole MO community up close to be able to know what’s normal and not. I do know it’s a huge range of people when I go to a Dati Leumi area, for example Bat Ayin or Efrat. I’m not sure what people self identity as.

The dati leumi people I know also range but they all value and keep Halacha, believe in the Oral Torah, and the 13 ani maamins etc.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:24 am

LovesHashem wrote:

See pages 6-8.

I encourage anyone jumping in now to read the last pages clearly and then respond.

My question is what does MO hold of that separates it from Open Orthodoxy, Conservative, and Reform?

So far I’ve been told that all you have to do is keep shabbos but not believe anything or do other Halachos.

Others have said you must keep Halacha.

I’m getting a lot of conflicting answers here.

Because you keep confusing observance and hashkafa.

A yeshivish child molestor considers himself yeshivish. I would say he isn't observant. He doesn't keep yiddishkeit, but that says nothing about his belief in the ideal of Torah, da'as Torah etc.

So someone who doesn't keep shabbat or kosher may consider themselves MO in hashkafa, but not in practice.

They hold the ideal of MO without fulfilling its observance.

The same for someone yeshivish eating non- kosher cookies. They believe in the ideal of the yeshivish hashkafa even when they fail to uphold the highest level of observance.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:39 am

simcha2 wrote:

If you really hold of something you are striving to get there. Like I said, when I see people who clearly violate most of Halacha for years, it doesn’t seem like they are striving anywhere.

Ideals are nice, but that’s not action.

And again, if anyone who holds MO ideals call themselves MO, you can’t expect people to think that MO people don’t all keep Halacha, and be wary of their kashrus.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:47 am

LovesHashem wrote:

And again, if anyone who holds MO ideals call themselves MO, you can’t expect people to think that MO people don’t all keep Halacha, and be wary of their kashrus.

That is the same for every hashkafa.

I see yeshivish people wearing bikinis on vacation, and not reporting income and selling cookies without hashgacha and complaining that their dh doesn't daven and that they have violated niddah.

So because of all those things should I be wary of the kashrus of all yeshivish people?

EPL

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:56 am

I grew up in a somewhat MO/Yeshivish home. My father was a Yeshiva man, as were my brothers, all of whom wore black yamukas. I married a YU man who wears a kipah sruga. I believe people judge others by their head covering, and if you're wearing a kippah sruga you appear less frum. Even though I know my husband is just as frum as my black velvet wearing brothers, I have wished that he would change his head covering.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:06 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Multiple MO people have said over the past few pages - as long as you keep shabbos you are MO, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in parts of the Torah or think Hashem is around or not.

They said people who openly say that their community doesn't care about certain areas of halacha, is fine.

Please read the past few pages, specifically Fox's posts.

That’s not what I said - my point was as long as you identify as MO you get to be MO, although your observance may not necessarily reflect MO values like keeping Halacha fully. What I’m saying that as long as the person identifies as MO and thus meaning they keep Shabbat most MO will eat at their homes etc.
I specifically said that the community does strive to keep Halacha.

↑ tp3 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:07 am

simcha2 wrote:

It's not the same because there are certain parameters that make someone either in or out.
What are those parameters in the MO world that every single MO person would confirm?

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:11 am

LovesHashem wrote:

No. No one said that, though you do keep repeating it.

↑ Mermaidinexile ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:22 am

LovesHashem wrote:

absolutely disagree. "Yeshivish" has become much more of a culture than anything else. And this culture even extends to kashrus. There is no "striving" involved.

An example:
I wear skirts and short sleeves and cover my head (not hair, head- halacha) . My super yeshivish cousin from Lakewood comes for shabbos. She does not touch any salad/spinach kugel/etc. Meanwhile, does she know that I prepare these items l'fe halacha? she does not know this but automatically assumes I don't. (am I insulted? no. amused? yes).

Anyhow, said cousin gets married. She wears a sheitel down to her tuchus. Does not daven. Does not go to shul because going to shul is "considered modern ". Her husband cheats on his forms to get government assistance. Are we still "yeshivish"? of course we are. would anyone doubt the kashrus of her spinach? never.

so much for striving. Its a culture. nothing more.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:37 am

tp3 wrote:

It's not the same because there are certain parameters that make someone either in or out.
What are those parameters in the MO world that every single MO person would confirm?

The parameters for the yeshivish world don't always have to do with halacha (what color shirt, hair covering type, nail polish etc), so it is hard to take any of the parameters seriously. So, if because a man wears a striped shirt he is out, but cheating on his taxes (or molesting his children), he isn't, how can those be real parameters?

In MO there is a wide tent (just like in this week's parsha), no one is "out". That is not how it works.

Does it mean that there are people who are not observant who self identity as MO, sure. But that doesn't 1) effect my own practice of halacha or 2) make MO hashkafa invalid.

I'm fine with a lack of gate keeping because I'm confident enough in my own derech. I like that in my oot, one shul town there are women who cover their hair with a sheital, and some with a tichel, and some with a hat (and only in shul), and we can all daven together and our kids can all be friends together and we all love the same Hashem. Why would I want any of them excluded?

(And they all toivel their dishes. We didn't have a keilim mikvah for the longest time, so people toiveled their dishes in the actual mikvah. I was the person with the key. I can tell you that the women who didn't cover their hair toiveled their new dishes the same as those with a sheital).

dragoneye126

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 11:46 am

I think it would be helpful, as someone who is about as mainstream MO as you can get and has lived in several MO communities, to give an example of how a typical US MO community works:

There’s a MO shul with a rabbi (from YU and maybe also secular college) whose job it is to lead his (yes, his) community spiritually by teaching on Shabbat, giving classes during the week, providing spiritual support during lifecycle events, and providing halachic guidance when asked. This includes grilling witnesses about their level of observance before allowing them to sign a ketubah, btw.

85% or more of the families send their kids to Jewish day school (which has high standards for Judaic and secular studies and so is very expensive). Everyone who goes to shul on Shabbat chooses to do so because it’s important to them, even though no one would look down on them for skipping occasionally. This is a big deal because they are integrated into the secular world, so they have given up personal or professional opportunities in order to be at shul/keep Shabbat. There will probably be some doctors who come late/get called in the middle of shul, and this is normal because the community understands that each individual doctor has consulted with halachic authority to reach an understanding of pikuach nefesh that is specific to their work.

After davening there is kiddish at shul with catered food/cookies. No food from home would ever be served in shul- everything has to come directly from a kosher place. This is because some families are more or less makpidim on kashrut than others. After kiddish most people go home, though a very few go back to their secular lives, including driving.

After shul they may or may not go to eat a family's house that doesn’t keep strict Shabbos- that is up to the individuals. Because the community includes different levels of observance it’s not really offensive to ask about kashrut, and the rabbi might have a rule to not eat from anyone’s home just to make it easy.

How do people know about each family’s level of observance? That’s easy- there is no stigma attached to more/less observance, so people are open about it. Besides, the MO community is pretty small (limited schools, Shuls, etc), so you know most people very well.

How are you different from reform/conservative Jews? That’s also easy- you believe in religious practice, and it’s so important to you that you have made significant sacrifices to keep mitzvot, including not driving to shul, not sending your kid to public school, and prioritizing Jewish life even when it would be way easier not to. This is true, of course, for ALL frum Jews, but your lifestyle has more temptations because of your exposure to secular life, and you make these choices without fear of being kicked out because no one would ostracize you for not being so frum anymore. And, most importantly, you define YOURSELF as not being Conservative/Reform (who wouldn’t really want you in their communities anyway because you are very concerned with religious practice and not just belief).

Is this easy? No, of course not. We are part of the secular world and understand that our way of life is too religious to be considered normal by many. We are also part of the frum world and understand that our way of life is too open to be considered properly frum by many.

This way of life is also super expensive because we have limited geographical presence outside of major urban areas where people can earn enough money to send kids to our high-quality schools. As a result we generally have fewer kids than more frum families (and also because we usually marry later, after more schooling). It may even be unsustainable in the long run for that very reason (and also because of the general trend to the right). But we believe passionately that Torah encompasses all of Hashem’s creation and that it is our duty as Jews to live a torah lifestyle in full understanding of the world as Hashem made it.

↑ essie14 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:08 pm

simcha2 wrote:

🥰🥰🥰🥰

↑ essie14 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:11 pm

Mermaidinexile wrote:

This describes me and several of my family members.
They haven't opened a siddur in years, they partied during seminary and didn't learn a thing, but they're yeshivish.

While I have learned halacha extensively but I "can't be trusted" because I don't identify as yeshivish and ascribe to their culture?

↑ tp3 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:19 pm

simcha2 wrote:

I totally meant parameters of halacha. Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha plus any basic halacha done in public such as tznius.
And hashkafa such as the 13 ikrim, the belief of Torah Msinai, etc.

What are the MO parameters? What would make someone disqualified from being MO?

icedcoffee

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:23 pm

I think this idea of "accepting" someone simply doesn't fit in with MO. It isn't like in some other communities where you must have a filter on your phone, or no TV in your house, in order to attend a certain school. People aren't gatekeeping other people's lives. If I saw someone doing something questionable, I would either think "ok, I guess they have a psak to do it that way" or else "ok, that person is straight up just being lax with the halacha." But what am I going to do with that information? It has nothing to do with me and so I don't need to worry about what it "means."

There is no situation in which someone has to officially declare that this person is or is not MO. Whether they formally are or aren't isn't a thing that takes up anyone's headspace.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:25 pm

tp3 wrote:

Read the rest of my post.

Anyone can identify as MO, and no one would "disqualify" them. It doesn't make them observant.

And not paying taxes, and not showing ahavas Yisrael, and wearing a bikini on vacation, and molesting people, and not davening, and selling and buying homemade cookies etc all violate halacha and do not "disqualify" one from yeshivish culture.

It is a made up idea.

↑ tp3 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:29 pm

I don't care to gatekeep anyone else either but if my child had a sleepover or a bday party invite in a home which is lax in halacha or we were invited for shabbos to people who don't believe Torah is Divine, of course I wouldn't want to be naive to these things.

What do you do practically if your child is invited over by a classmate, since there is a range of observance within the school?

↑ tp3 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:34 pm

simcha2 wrote:

Or maybe they got a psak or heter to do something that looks against halacha or against your values or maybe you don't know the whole story?
Does this not judging or not disqualifying people apply only to your own MO community or to other Jews as well?

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:37 pm

tp3 wrote:

I'd ask. People know we are makpid, so wouldn't offer my child something they know I'm not ok with them eating.

Our shul has a range of observances, and people have definitely asked us if we are comfortable eating in their house. Or they simply wouldn't invite us if they know it will make us uncomfortable.

People are sensitive to other people.

I mean if you only eat a certain hechsher, what do you do if your child is invited? You ask. Or people offer the information.

There is a basic level that is expected (toiveled dishes, checked vegetables, mainstream hechsherim according to crc etc), there is no one that doesn't do those things.

Believing in Torah min Shamayim is part of the hashkafa of MO (not observance) and I assume anyone identifying as MO believes in it.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:39 pm

tp3 wrote:

They got a heter to molest their children? To wear a bikini?

But that wasn't my point. My point was saying their are parameters to "disqualify" people, is more about culture than halacha.

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