Dayan called me "דו"

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 9:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

A dayan I've spoken to in the past recently called me דו. I thought it was a mistake until the dayan said it again and דיר and when the dayan told me האלט א רגע . I was very unglued and am very uncomfortable by this.

I know this dayan is erlich and I don't think otherwise but I'm confused about what happened.

I don't want to bring it up and be disrespectful but I also don't want to stop calling. I also think maybe the dayan needs to know I have these kinds of thoughts. I actually cried a little over my confusion just to help explain how it affects me.

Do you think I should:
1. Let it go and see if it happens again?
2. Ask the dayan a shaila about using דו for an איר in my own life?
3. Something else?

Lastly, have you ever had this before?

Oy. Yes. He’s human.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:04 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thanks this is very relatable. I was thinking how the dayan always seems to have so much time to pick up could it really mean chv he never is learning at all and only took this position to speak to women about shailos etc. I know that is paranoid and not rational though so I disregarded it. I know the dayan is erlich I just feel so unsure about the whole thing.

This seems quite extreme and judgemental. Only took the job to speak to women??? OP, I think you need to examine if you are projecting your insecurities on other people.

amother

Firebrick ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:17 am

If you're not used to it, it can make you confused, but my dayan does it too. I think it's because it's easier to talk that way, not so stilting. Especially if you're having a whole long conversation, it keeps the flow and should make you more comfortable conversing, not less. Maintaining a third person barrier might hinder someone from feeling vulnerable enough and thus getting the help they need. It's more common in today's generation than a generation ago.

The fact that he always picks up the phone means that he takes his responsibility to serve his people seriously. I appreciate dayanim who pick up the phone and don't increase my anxiety in calling by making me call multiple times until I get through. It's often very uncomfortable making a call. I remember once I had a last minute emergency about mikva, it was time sensitive and my old dayan didn't have a cell phone (very holy, I know). He did have a dedicated house line but he didn't pick up and didn't call back even after I left a message. He called back the next day. I couldn't end up going that night and that's when I knew I need a new dayan. The one I have now either picks up right away or calls back within the hour and I have tremendous hakaras hatov to him.

avrahamama

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:22 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

This seems quite extreme and judgemental. Only took the job to speak to women??? OP, I think you need to examine if you are projecting your insecurities on other people.

In addition. He's making himself available the same way David HaMelech made himself available for these shailas. Gemarah Brachot 4A

"David said the following before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, am I not pious? For all of the kings of the East and the West sit in groups befitting their honored status, but I sit as a judge who issues rulings for the people. Women come with questions of ritual impurity and my hands become soiled with their blood as I labor to determine whether or not it is blood of impurity and she has menstruating woman status, "

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:30 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

This seems quite extreme and judgemental. Only took the job to speak to women??? OP, I think you need to examine if you are projecting your insecurities on other people.

Did you read the second half of what you quoted? I know that was not rational and I was explaining to the other poster why her post was so relatable. Regardless of this, the "dee" makes me extremely unnerved and unsure of myself and I appreciate the insight. Thanks.

amother

Jade ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:38 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

It's not a problem. It's not right that you're nitpicking like this.

You may not feel comfortable with it but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

If he's erlich enough that you trust him to pasken things for you, you should trust him with this and accept that it's innocent and his way of addressing you.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

ETA it's certainly not standard to call parents and in laws in third person. Only a certain type do. Most people don't.

Are you chassidish yiddish speaking?
It's generally inappropriate for a dayan or any non related man to talk to women like this. It's to homey and friendly and not professional.
A dayan should not ask a women דו ביזט געווען...
He supposed to ask איר זענט געווען.......
In English there aren't really different terms, but in yiddish there is and it's considered inappropriate for men to talk like this to unrelated women and vice versa.

amother

↑ Jade

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

OP, I get you, I'd also get uncomfortable by this kind of talk.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I did read the second part. And I am respectfully suggesting that the first part sheds light on the second part.

You already have a suspicion about this dayan, which you know is irrational. Perhaps you are looking for other things to pin on him to "justify" your suspicious feelings about him.

I'm not in your community, so I can't say for sure. In my experience, the word "dee" coming from a choshuv man would not alarm me. But maybe it really is different in your community.

I think that if you have lost respect for him, perhaps see if you can find another dayan that you can respect fully. Also, what does your husband think about this?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:57 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

No no no. I had no suspicions at all. When he said דו to me that's when I started to become unsure and alarmed and frightened and when all bells went off in my brain. I know what is rational and what is not. I was just sharing that not rational feeling that is not bothering me as a way of relating to Ruby amother who really seems to have understood. I asked my father what he thinks of a dayan saying "dee" to a woman and he said it would be highly unusual but my father is more of an old timer so I respect him very very much but I'm not sure he would understand this. I think I got some good feedback here.

naturalmom5

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 10:59 am

OP .... I am really jealous that you have such an easy comfortable life that you have the luxury to overanalyze this...

The Dayan probably has so many life and death matters going on and so many serious issues that he was on auto pilot when he spoke to you

Its probably less tznius to focus on your voice and think.. oh its a female ...let me adress her as ir...

amother

Apricot

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 11:03 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why don't you ask dh?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 11:04 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

I know you didn't mean anything mean by this, but I was actually asking a very serious shaila that I doubt a dayan is asked on a regular basis and that I hope other people don't need to ask, but I don't expect you to understand that and it doesn't change how uncomfortable I could be over hearing "dee." I think amother Ruby picked up on the situation best. Also, when you are raised this way, these things are second nature so you wouldn't need to think "am I talking with a woman now".

amother

Honeydew ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 11:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

so true op. I totally feel you on this. but you need to understand that we Yiddish speakers are much more careful when it comes to matters between men and women that are unrelated and should be careful with each other. we cant expect everyone to understand is on this as its our shittah and not theirs. I'm assuming the only reason was that the Dayan slipped up in the conversation and forgot himself that he did it. If you see it again I would tell you to beware.

amother

↑ Ruby ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 11:29 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Did you also tell your father the amount of time and the hours this dayan is talking to you and how much he has to concentrate when answering you?

Again, this isn't about a yes or no question and if you present this issue to someone you should also present it with all the facts otherwise you won't get the correct answers.

By your own admission the questions you present aren't basic.
So he wasn't thinking about eer or dee. He just went to the point.

You have to talk to someone that knows what you are asking and what type of person you need to present this to.

Asking random people will only hurt you.

Also, I'm not sure about the bolded because this thread proves otherwise. Not that I dont understand you.

amother

Peach

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 11:48 am

Does the Dayan actually know who you are? Was he originally from out of town or another community that might be more laid back? What does your husband say about this? It’s just so hard finding someone knowledgeable you can trust. I would be very cautious before jumping to conclusions.

shaqued_almond

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 12:08 pm

Some people also use "ihr" if the person is not well known to them. Maybe he was trying to tell you by using "du" that he considers you part of the family so to speak. Personally, although I grew up with formal speech I find it a bit funny because we're using "du" to speak to Hashem, so if Hashem prefers informal speech I will too

amother

↑ Honeydew

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 12:11 pm

shaqued_almond wrote:

we use the ihr and not di for tznius purposes and not because of informal language. that's what's bothering OP