Discussion on the Daf - Pesachim

amother

Mint ↓

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 7:47 pm

Hi all! I'm slogging through the tumah dapim, and we keep having contradictions left as קשיא. What does it mean when the gemarah just leaves it like that, not saying the shitta doesn't work but also not answering?

amother

↑ Mint

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 7:50 pm

Aylat wrote:

Not managing to keep up with posting thoughts on this thread. Here's a question from yesterday.
פסחים יד
"רבי חנינא סגן הכהנים אומר אמימיהם של כהנים...הוסיף ר' עקיבא ואמר מימיהם של כהנים..."
R' Chanina isn't telling over a halacha he learned from his rav or a סברא, he's testifying about the actual practice of the כהנים based on his years of experience. Why is R' Akiva mentioned in this context? What experience does he have with the practices of the כהונה?

Wasn't Rabbi Akiva alive before the churban.

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 7:58 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Wasn't Rabbi Akiva alive before the churban.

He was not a כהן, and he was an עם הארץ before the חורבן. (He didn’t begin to learn until after the בית המקדש was already destroyed.)

↑ Aylat ↓

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 11:44 pm

Good morning, shavua tov, and chanuka sameach!

Pesachim 22

Some thoughts from today's daf.

1) So many exceptions to the rule* that I'm wondering what's left?!
*Rule: if the Torah says forbidden to eat X, also forbidden to derive benefit from X.
We've excepted: נבלה, טריפה, גיד הנשה (anything I've missed?)
I know chametz and בשר בחלב are forbidden for benefit, what else?
ETA my friend just told me פירות ערלה are also אסורים בהנאה. Anyone know about other things?
ETA2 hadn't finished the daf when I posted this. Both פירות ערלה and שור הנסקל are mentioned on עמוד ב. But it seems like we need דרשות to teach that they are אסורים בהנאה, rather than being part of an automatic rule.

2) According to R' Shimon: eating גיד הנשה from non-kosher animal = exempt. Reminds me of בשר בחלב - if with non-kosher animal also exempt. (I think?)

3) Permitted to sell the blood of the sacrifices and use it as fertiliser!? Would never have believed it.

Last edited by Aylat on Sun, Dec 13 2020, 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Aylat ↓

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 11:48 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

He was not a כהן, and he was an עם הארץ before the חורבן. (He didn’t begin to learn until after the בית המקדש was already destroyed.)

He didn't start learning til after the חרבן? That I did not know. What about the גמרא with the foxes coming out of הר הבית? - seems like he was already a great Rav by then, and I assumed was recently after the חרבן.

Anyway, thanks for strengthening the question. Interested in an answer!

↑ Aylat ↓

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 11:54 pm

On a very sorrowful note: there was a terrible traffic accident near us on Friday.
Two young children were killed, a teenager and a young man are in a serious condition in hospital. One of them is from our yishuv, the others are his nephews (grandchildren of the yishuv family). If you could dedicate your learning

לרפואה שלמה
נתן צבי בן ציפורה מיכל
יאיר בן רחל

:לעילוי נשמת
אלישיב בן רחל ויעקב
ידידיה חיים בן רחל ויעקב

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 4:42 am

Aylat wrote:

He learned from/with R’Eliezer, R’Yehoshua, R’Tarfon, R’Elazar ben Azaria, & R’Gamliel, but I believe he was after R’Yochanan ben Zakai.

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 4:43 am

Aylat wrote:

So sad. B”n will do.

↑ imorethanamother ↓

Wed, Dec 16 2020, 10:39 pm

I seriously had the hardest time with all the not-taharah discussions from R Chanina Sgan Hakohanim.

And then yesterday’s daf? About the nosar and the chatas and blood and I’m not even sure what the original question was anymore.

Full disclosure: I didn’t finish Eiruvin. For various reasons. And when I stopped, I fully intended to start again with Pesachim. What I didn’t expect was how empty I would feel without my “zman” for learning. I tried to fill the slot with other shiurim online but somehow it all wasn’t the same.

So glad to be back, and I feel so much better. But at the same time, I feel completely lost and sad that I genuinely can’t follow.

I need to spend all day on each of these to really understand it! Maybe I should go to kollel!! (Lol I should start a thread on that to make imamother go completely berserk. Title: why women should have their own kollel. 😃😃)

amother

Fuchsia

Thu, Dec 17 2020, 12:48 am

imorethanamother wrote:

It's already happening. Go to Migdal Oz or Nishmat or Drisha and you can learn gemara full time.

Anyhow, I was kind of surprised by the Rabbi Chanina Sgan HaKohanim stuff. It does require a lot of background information that I didn't have, but the mental gymnastics were not particularly strenuous. So that's good news, and now I'm continuing to enjoy Pesachim.

↑ Aylat ↓

Thu, Dec 17 2020, 7:25 am

25b and 26

הנאה בעל כרחו
Anyone know הלכה למעשה? Are you allowed to enjoy the aroma from a chametz bakery on Pesach/non-kosher restaurant with בשר בחלב/incense from a church or temple?

↑ imorethanamother ↓

Thu, Dec 17 2020, 10:27 am

Aylat wrote:

Rabbi Lebowitz brought it up (yesterday’s daf was super exciting). Depends who you ask. If you can avoid driving past it, some say you should to avoid the smell. If you’re forced or unintentionally come across it, it’s not your fault.

But I can’t darshan for anyone.

↑ imorethanamother ↓

Mon, Jan 04 2021, 10:51 pm

No? No discussion on yesterday’s daf? We’re all good then?

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 4:22 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

No? No discussion on yesterday’s daf? We’re all good then?

Why don’t you start the discussion?

naturalmom5 ↓

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:53 pm

oh...BH I just saw this now...

In Eruvin, I saw that I was the only poster for weeks at a time so I got discouraged...

Iyh ..Im back..

Have a good Shabbos Aylat and gang

↑ naturalmom5 ↓

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:59 pm

Pesachim 49

Prior to reading today’s page of Talmud, I had always understood the common rabbinic phrase am ha-aretz (literally: people of the land, though it usually refers to one person) to refer to a poorly-behaved, unknowledgeable individual. The am ha’aretz is something of an opposite number to the rabbi himself — rustic, unlearned, unmannered. Marcus Jastrow’s dictionary defines the phrase as “ignorant person,” the Jewish English Lexicon includes among its definitions an “uneducated person” and “country bumpkin,” while The New Joys of Yiddish throws in “vulgar” and “ignoramus.” In all these definitions, at the very worst, an am ha’aretz is someone who is quaintly rude, but mostly harmless.

But today’s page takes a far more sinister view of the am ha’aretz — and is rather graphic about it. Our daf starts by laying out a hierarchy of preferred marriage candidates, starting at the top with “daughter of a Torah scholar.” At the other end of the spectrum, we have the daughter of an am ha’aretz, described his way:

So much hate for tge am haretz todsy

The text goes on, enumerating prohibitions on amei ha’aretz (the plural form), who cannot be trusted to serve as an orphan’s guardian or oversee a charity fund. It’s recommended not to travel with them for fear they’ll do you harm, and if you find an am ha’aretz’s lost item, some authorities say you have no obligation to return it (which is a big deal since the rabbis were quite concerned about the return of lost property as we will see in much more detail in Tractate Bava Metzia). You shouldn’t even study Torah around an am ha-aretz, although you’re explicitly (in more than one meaning of the word) permitted to “gut them like a fish” and stab them to death on a Yom Kippur that falls on Shabbat.

These actions are justified because an am ha-aretz is not just incompetent or ignorant — but downright malevolent and violent. For example:

Rabbi Meir would say: Anyone who marries off his daughter to an am ha’aretz is considered as though he binds her and places her before a lion. Why is this so? Just as a lion mauls its prey and eats and has no shame, so too, an ignoramus strikes his wife and then engages in s-xual relations with her without appeasing her first, and has no shame.

Again, the vitriol is palpable — this depiction is a far cry from the simple country bumpkin of the Jewish English Lexicon.

It’s hard to know exactly why the rabbis had so much loathing for this class of uneducated, non-practicing Jews in their midst. Nor do we know how numerous they were, or if the feeling was mutual. But today’s page leaves no room for ambiguity and can serve as either a basis for, or a warning against, demonizing those with whom we disagree. Subjectively, though, one can only imagine that something about the am ha’aretz terrified the rabbis, even if this does not seem to be true for later generations, as the semantic drift in the meaning of the term makes clear.

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:59 pm

Quote:

oh...BH I just saw this now...

In Eruvin, I saw that I was the only poster for weeks at a time so I got discouraged...

Iyh ..Im back..

Don’t get discouraged. I often don’t have time to post anything, but I love and appreciate when you do.

Glad to have you back!

↑ imorethanamother ↓

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 10:15 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Why don’t you start the discussion?

I feel like a one-note pony. I didn't get a chance to listen to the shiur on the daf, just read it inside instead. And it discussed that women don't get the mitzvah of eating matzah, but they do get the punishment for eating chametz. But if they're NOT eating chametz, what else are they eating? I don't get it.

amother

↑ Indigo ↓

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 4:25 am

imorethanamother wrote:

They would be eating matzah - just not getting the mitzvah for it. Sad

(Very glad they decided in the end - that all who are included in the mitzvah of not eating chametz, are also included in the mitzvah of eating matzah.)

ETA: Whats even more confounding - is that they seriously entertained the idea that women are not included in the prohibition of eating chametz (which is a zman gramah; but it’s a mitzvos lo sa’aseh - not a mitzvas aseh.)

↑ naturalmom5 ↓

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 10:19 am

The Matza Baking Dance

A mishnah on today’s daf raises a concern: If three women are baking matzah in a single oven simultaneously, what precautions must be taken in order to ensure that the dough does not rise while waiting its turn in the oven?

As Rashi explains, Rabban Gamliel doesn’t seem too worried, ruling that it is permitted for the three women to each prepare their batches of dough at the same time and then wait their turn to use the oven. In fact, the Ritva (a 13th century Spanish commentator) suggests that Rabban Gamliel thinks the three women should knead and form their dough at the same time, even though this means waiting a while for the oven to become available.

But the sages are worried about the idle dough beginning to leaven and offer an alternative suggestion for the best way for three women to share one oven:

At first glance, the sages’ suggestion sounds like the assembly line method, with one woman assigned exclusively to each task. Rashi explains, however, that it is instead the classroom learning stations model. Each woman works with her own dough in a specified sequence: while one kneads, another forms and the third bakes. Then, each advances to the next step, much like singing a three-part round.