Miracle amidst the tragedy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2007, 9:20 pm

I am only aware of one (!) rebbe who openly pushed for aliya and wrote about it, etc. It would be interesting to know how many opposed it, how many agreed reluctantly sometimes and how many found it good. I would love to hear of something else than "uncle X was put in cherem" and "cousin Y was the shame of the family"...

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2007, 9:26 pm

By the way, Israel would have been created much closer to Torah ideals, and would be much frummer, if many rabbis hadn't discouraged alia! Flourishing communities and yeshivos would have moved there for sure, instead of just dying in the Holocaust and the few survivors scattered around Europe, many who lost faith, some who ignore they are Jewish or don't wanna know... such a waste, it drives me crazy...

↑ sarahd ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2007, 7:11 am

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

My paternal grandfather emigrated to Australia against the advice of the Belzer Rebbe. B"H, he lived to see children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren who are all BE"H frum, ehrliche yidden. The rest of his family, and his town, was wiped out HY"D.

Quote:

Same with my family, killed at Auschwitz because their rebbe told them to stay. The rebbe left.

I've thought about these posts and have decided that since they were written anonymously and no identifying information has been provided, that they aren't worth discussing here. Even if a screen name was used, if names and other information are not provided, I dismiss it. We have no way of knowing whether this is true or a lie or a partial story, so what's the point in analyzing it?

as for the question about assimilation rates, this is recent history

if you're really interested in knowing the truth, it's easy to find out

here's a clue: how many Jews emigrated to the US from Eastern Europe from 1850-1930? How many Jews are presently living in the US today? What percentage of Jews today in the US are shomer Shabbos? (rhetorical questions)

amother wrote:

Why the rolling eyes, amother? Yes, the vast majority, almost all in fact, of Jews who emigrated to America before WWII assimilated and in many if not most cases their children aren't even Jews.

↑ bashinda ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2007, 11:57 am

well B"H some of those descendants have done teshuva but sarahd's right and I see it in my own family history.

My great grandparents were Shomer Torah uMitzvos and they brought over everyone.

Their own children (my grandparent's generation) didn't have chinuch and went to public school and they moved to the subuerbs and at least for my grandparents' families they all stopped being frum and raised their own children reform or something similar. Of these children I'm the only one that I know of who has become frum and there's unfortunately intermarriage as well and a few non Jews in my family. Now there's always hope with every one of those Jews as they all have the capacity for teshuva but it hasn't happened yet.

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2007, 6:12 pm

mushmom wrote:

I think its horrible and ridiculous to suggest that there were rebbeim who advised jews to stay in Europe bc they would assimilate if they survived the holocaust.

Who suggested that? Confused

Point #1: Many Jews were told not to emigrate (America was known as the treifine medina) because emigrating almost invariably meant dropping one's yiddishkeit

Point #2: This advice about not emigrating was given even decades before the Holocaust

Point #3: I have never heard of any case in which a rabbi said: don't leave, because better you should die here than assimilate there. In other words, when the question was asked about emigration the answer given was not one in which the questioner or the one giving the answer knew that staying=death.

↑ ChossidMom

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 4:10 am

mushmom wrote:

I think youre all forgetting that a tzadik is not gd- hes just His agent. So sometimes gd can let him see certain things, sometimes not. think- yaakov avinu.
I think its horrible and ridiculous to suggest that there were rebbeim who advised jews to stay in Europe bc they would assimilate if they survived the holocaust. rather, we can say that Hashem simply blocked their vision- didnt allow them to see the vision that would save these lives, because for some reason- and this of course we can NEVER understand, rationalize etc- Gd did not want them to survive. Kach Olo Birtzono.

Well said, Mushmom.
I have a hard time with people implying that a tzakik CAUSED someone's death. Sorry. They don't have that power. Only Hashem does.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 12:28 pm

sarahd I ,all my first cousins,& even our grandchildren are PROOF that "ALMOST ALL IN FACT" Jews who emigrated before WWII have children who aren't jewish.Yes there are a couple of 1st cousins who aren't frum but in fact they grew up frum & went to yeshivos. They are products of the problem now. Bashinda- how can youagree with such a blanket statement when you yourself are proof that that didn't happen! Ok not everyone did tshuva (well in my case my grandparents & sibs all remained frum in America) but you did.

↑ bashinda ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 1:18 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe you didn't understand my post if you're surprised I agreed with sarahd. I stated clearly that B"H there are baalei teshuva certainly but unfortunately we are not the majority of the descendants who came to the U.S. from 1850-1930. I'd be very happy if that was the case but I don't see it.

I'm not proof that assimilation didn't happen only that Hashem has rachmanus on us. If I read you correctly you were B"H in a family that stayed frum once your family came to the U.S. You don't realize this maybe because maybe you don't leave NY but you are in fact a minority. As the orthodox population grows and the non frum population dwindles perhaps being orthodox will be the majority but right now that is not in fact the case.

I grew up in a family with a mother and father who both were raised in a non frum home by their parents who either themselves left frumkeit after growing up without the chinuch we take for granted today or maybe didn't even have much frumkeit then either (I'm not so sure about my father's side). That is not the same case as someone who grows up frum and ch"v goes off the derech.

It was somewhat hard to parse your post so forgive me if I misunderstood what you were saying.

↑ sarahd ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 4:35 pm

Out of over a million (I think 1.5 million) Jewish immigrants to the United States between 1880 and 1920, how many remained frum along with their descendants? 150,000? Of course not. Was it even 5,000? I think not, but you know what? I'll even go out on a limb and say it was 10,000 out of a million who had children who remained frum. What percentage of 1 million is 10,000? 1%, right?

I don't think it's exaggerating to describe 99% of something as "almost all", do you?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 4:38 pm

Many Jews in Europe were already not frum, assimilated, intermarried c'v.
Out of all the French Jewish families from the 20's, how many are still frum today??? how many still Jewish...
I know it's the same in many (most?) European countries. In my dh's area, before WWI, there was 100 functioning synagogues. When the war started? ONE.

↑ bashinda ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 7:25 pm

amother wrote:

I don't live in NY as a matter of fact. Hence the amother. Anyway I'm not saying there wasn't &isn't tremendous assimilation, but to assert almost all is not ok either.

what does living in NY have to do with posting as amother or not?

you sounded like an insulated NYer who has never left brooklyn and I don't mean that meanly. There's certainly something to be said for such an outlook even though I'm not actually correct in your case.

↑ bashinda

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 7:28 pm

Ruchel wrote:

that's also true. what with socialism, zionism etc etc there was a lot of assimilation in Europe as well.

that wasn't true from what I can see in my own family but it certainly was a large problem. I guess it depended on where you lived. My family was in Russia in what is now Belarus. They were too busy with the basics from what I understand and this hadn't gotten to them. Most of my family was in the U.S. by early 20s. My alter zeide, a"h came in 1912 aroundabouts and had brought over his entire family and part of my alta bubbe's (a lot of them didn't want to come over) by th early '20s.

↑ sarahd

Tue, Jan 08 2008, 7:51 am

It's true. Haskala in Eastern Europe and Reform in the west had made great inroads into Yiddishkeit well before WWI and the tremendous upheaval during and following WWI did even more damage. The Russian Revolution didn't help, either. But the biggest "broch" was the Holocaust, in which a majority of the victims were frum. The overwhelming majority of frum Jews (I've read something like 90%) were killed during the war.

Raisin

Tue, Jan 08 2008, 4:33 pm

Ruchel wrote:

And those who remained often dropped out of despair.
90%? wow. I understand better why people think there are no frum ashkenazim left in Europe, if that's the number.
Today again, people talked to us in English because they saw frum Ashk. and thought "American". Sad

There are a substantial number of frum ashkenazim in the uk, isn't that also part of Europe?

And I thought one of you was sefardi?

↑ gryp

Tue, Jan 08 2008, 7:00 pm

Quote:

I stated clearly that B"H there are baalei teshuva certainly but unfortunately we are not the majority of the descendants who came to the U.S. from 1850-1930. I'd be very happy if that was the case but I don't see it.

I just found out last week that my mother's side was here is the US of A since the earlier 1800's. Maybe even before, but we lose track that far back.

(My great-uncle was mekareved by Lubavitch, and he mekareved most of the family. Those who became frum, are BY-type frum today, except for my own family- my parents became Lubavitch later. All of my great-uncle's own family (my 2nd cousins) are Lubavitch.)

My point is not to post a boring post Smile

but that we are one family who's been in America forever almost, and just about all the descendants (a lot by now, hundreds ka"h) are frum today. (Yes, there are a few out there that are not, I can't say I'm very familiar with them.)

↑ Ruchel

Wed, Jan 09 2008, 1:20 pm

Raisin wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

There are a substantial number of frum ashkenazim in the uk, isn't that also part of Europe?

And I thought one of you was sefardi?

Mmmm yes, England is in a way part of Europe, although I meant the "continent". But come on, England has a quite different story. No Shoah.

And no, we are both Ashkenazic.