Cell phone on Shabbat

amother ↓

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 9:47 am

DH and I have a very unique situation, but if anyone has some advice that might help it would be great.

My 15 yr old felmale cousin lives with us. We are only 10 years older than her and trying our best to give her stabinitly and family. As you can tell from taht information alone she has a 'history', nothing too bad B"H. One of the rules we have for her with regard to Shabbat is that if she feels it's too hard for her to keep, she can do whatever she wants in her room (draw, turn on lights etc) -- this is a huge comprimise on our part but we don't want to force her awar for religion. The two exceptions are that she can not use the computer (it's in a public area anyway) and she may not under any circumstance (no matter how bored she is) use her phone.

This week we had guests for shabbat dinner, my cousin left the table early. I went to check on her and found her using her cell phone. I calmly told her that this was not ok and took the phone away. She was clearly angry but on shabbat day she was more than a perfect angel, helping out and participating.

After Shabbat DH and I decicded her consequence for using her phone was not getting it back until monday morning (she needs it during the week so we can contact her -- other complications), and that she would not get her allowance this week.

She was very angry to say the least. And her anger creates a certain mood in the house. Everyone is tripping over themselves to not to upset her. She is loud in her actions (slamming doors that woke my daughter) and that type of "you want to mess with me? I'll show you" behavior. I don't know how to balance trying to educate her with keeping the shalom bayit in our home. Telling her she can't be angry is obviously not an option....

chocolate moose ↓

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 10:55 am

[quote="amother"]DH and I have a very unique situation/quote]

Unique is a superlative. This is redundant and grammatically incorrect.

amother wrote:

DH and I have a very unique situation, but if anyone has some advice that might help it would be great. My 15 yr old felmale cousin lives with us. We are only 10 years older than her and trying our best to give her stabinitly and family. As you can tell from taht information alone she has a 'history', nothing too bad B"H. One of the rules we have for her with regard to Shabbat is that if she feels it's too hard for her to keep, she can do whatever she wants in her room (draw, turn on lights etc) -- this is a huge comprimise on our part but we don't want to force her awar for religion. The two exceptions are that she can not use the computer (it's in a public area anyway) and she may not under any circumstance (no matter how bored she is) use her phone.

This week we had guests for shabbat dinner, my cousin left the table early. I went to check on her and found her using her cell phone. I calmly told her that this was not ok and took the phone away. She was clearly angry but on shabbat day she was more than a perfect angel, helping out and participating.

After Shabbat DH and I decicded her consequence for using her phone was not getting it back until monday morning (she needs it during the week so we can contact her -- other complications), and that she would not get her allowance this week.

She was very angry to say the least. And her anger creates a certain mood in the house. Everyone is tripping over themselves to not to upset her. She is loud in her actions (slamming doors that woke my daughter) and that type of "you want to mess with me? I'll show you" behavior. I don't know how to balance trying to educate her with keeping the shalom bayit in our home. Telling her she can't be angry is obviously not an option....

Is the issue the fact that the child is a cousin, that you had guests, the age of your cousin, or your own House Rules? You call your post, Cell phones on Shabbos, but that's not really the issue, is it?

If it's that the child is a cousin, not your own child, then you can ask her to leave. You're doing her a favor, but if you can't, you can't.

Is the issue the fact that you had guests - sure that's an embarrasing situation for you and your guests - certainly uncomfortable, but think about it, anyone close to you must know the details.

Is the age of your cousin the issue - she's 15, not a child not an adult. She can't live on her own. She's under your thumb. And you all are not that mucholder. Think about her feelings.

Is it your own House Rules? Well, are they hard and fast or not? Do you want her to make not Shabbodike noise in your house? You say turning on lights is okay for her - why should she think that a cell phone is any different, specially if she thinks you're busy with guests?

Last edited by chocolate moose on Sun, Jan 06 2008, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

Mitzvahmom

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 11:02 am

shalhevet wrote:

I have two questions:
1. How could you take her phone away on Shabbat? (If I understood you correctly).
2. Why did you decide that she can draw, switch on lights etc in her own room, but that she can't use a cell phone there?

I would think very carefully about the inconsistent message you are giving her. I would also think very carefully about forbidding her to break Shabbat in private. And why did you go and check up on her? I would davka try not to 'catch her in the act'.

I agree... if the cell phone is an issue on shabbos so ask for it before shabbos starts and give it back to her after.. You allow all of these other things, it's a bit inconsistant.. And if I remember from an earlier post about the same situation. YOu were considering letting her talk on the phone on shabbos, as long as it was in her room.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 2:34 pm

I guess I need to clarify, but let me start with saying that this may not be a fair question for all of you who are mothers of children who are theirs. I am -- for no way to better explain it -- a mother of a 15 year old and yes I ask myself multiple times a day whether or not I can do this given the fact that I am only 10 years older -- but DH and I decided that it was better than her winding up pregnant or possibly an addict or worse since she has no other family -- So we are trying to so what is best is a really bad situation and I was looking for some type of advice or support.

The issue was not embarassment - my guests didn't know.

And yes, I probably should not have taken away the phone since I wasn't any more allowed to touch it on Shabbat than she was. But at that moment I felt that I needed to make it abundantly clear who was in charge and what the rules were. If I just said "don't do that" 5 minutes later she would have been using it again thinking "she (me) is so stupid, I can get away with anything I want".

As far as setting rules, yeah it's crazy and somewhat two faced to say doing whatever she wants in her room is ok except for the phone. Our reasoning -- and it may not sound ok to you -- is that she has no interest in G-d, religion or shabbat. But we ask her to repsectful of our space on shabbat. What she does in her own space is up to her. Our exception is the phone because it isn't hers, we pay for it she gets to use it. It is a privledge not to be misused. The misuse as we have set out it using it on Shabbat (or during school hours -- which is a seperate issue).

What I am looking for, from anyone who may have it, is advice. From someone who has dealt with a teen with religion issues, or authority issues. I know there are other teens like that out there, and it's a blessing to all you mothers who belong to this site if you don't have one.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Jan 06 2008, 3:13 pm

Let me tell you, I was that teenager not too long ago, and of course I did
'grow up' and mature...etc. specially since I'm married -duh. point is, of course she'll react angry, thats typicaly teenager response. but, dont get intimidated. it will be ok. just stick by your rules and decisions. its true, try to be consistant. dont confuse her, think about her 'shoes' every once in a while, just to be sure shes not getting confused with your rules. and I believe , from what you did say, youre doing fine. every child wants/needs rules and boundaries. think about it, the spoiled child never turns out too good. and the ones that rebell are just looking for those boundaries. of course, to break them ! lol but , thats just for now. for the teenage peer pressure they're experiencing. but in the long run, its the rules that will level her out, once she's past that stage, she is still young, so there may be a while to that, it takes one in itself to do that transistioning step , to mature. so nothing ud say or do would help that issue. you just keep to it. your doing great! the anger will only last a moment, a day, a week, but the love that she feels from you guys, that you really care about what she does and giving her rules bec of that, will stay forever. remember that.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Jan 07 2008, 12:09 am

amother wrote:

DH and I have a very unique situation, but if anyone has some advice that might help it would be great.
SNIP
She was very angry to say the least. And her anger creates a certain mood in the house. Everyone is tripping over themselves to not to upset her. She is loud in her actions (slamming doors that woke my daughter) and that type of "you want to mess with me? I'll show you" behavior. I don't know how to balance trying to educate her with keeping the shalom bayit in our home. Telling her she can't be angry is obviously not an option....

Well, based on her reaction, she seems like a normal teenager to me!

I'm not in your position, which makes it difficult for me to step into your shoes and offer advice. It does seem to me that your rules are internally inconsistent, however. She's allowed to do just about anything she wants on Shabbat *except* use her phone -- can she turn on and off lights? (And what about the bathroom! That could create problems.) Can she cook breakfast? Take a bus to visit her friends? Go to the store or a movie? Play music? What's so different or special about the phone? Would you feel differently about the phone if she paid for it out of money she earned?

My advice would be for you to figure out what you can live with and what you can't live with, then sit down with your cousin at a time when none of you are angry and upset. Remind her that you want her to live in your home and be a part of your family, and that you respect and accept that she doesn't share your religious beliefs. At the same time, however, remind her that you expect the same from her -- for her to live with and be a part of your family, and to respect your beliefs even if she doesn't share them. Then, together with her, work out the boundaries of that respect -- what can or cannot be done in your home. Make sure that she is aware of the consequences of her failure to adhere to the rules. If, as I assume, there will never be a consequence of asking her to leave, make sure she knows that; she may feel very insecure, and may be testing you to see if she has a secure home.

BTW, you cannot tell her that she can't be unhappy or upset. You can tell her that she may not express those emotions in ways that impact upon other members of the household.

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Jan 12 2008, 7:20 pm

[quote="chocolate moose"]

amother wrote:

DH and I have a very unique situation/quote]

Unique is a superlative. This is redundant and grammatically incorrect.

amother wrote:

DH and I have a very unique situation, but if anyone has some advice that might help it would be great. My 15 yr old felmale cousin lives with us. We are only 10 years older than her and trying our best to give her stabinitly and family. As you can tell from taht information alone she has a 'history', nothing too bad B"H. One of the rules we have for her with regard to Shabbat is that if she feels it's too hard for her to keep, she can do whatever she wants in her room (draw, turn on lights etc) -- this is a huge comprimise on our part but we don't want to force her awar for religion. The two exceptions are that she can not use the computer (it's in a public area anyway) and she may not under any circumstance (no matter how bored she is) use her phone.

This week we had guests for shabbat dinner, my cousin left the table early. I went to check on her and found her using her cell phone. I calmly told her that this was not ok and took the phone away. She was clearly angry but on shabbat day she was more than a perfect angel, helping out and participating.

After Shabbat DH and I decicded her consequence for using her phone was not getting it back until monday morning (she needs it during the week so we can contact her -- other complications), and that she would not get her allowance this week.

She was very angry to say the least. And her anger creates a certain mood in the house. Everyone is tripping over themselves to not to upset her. She is loud in her actions (slamming doors that woke my daughter) and that type of "you want to mess with me? I'll show you" behavior. I don't know how to balance trying to educate her with keeping the shalom bayit in our home. Telling her she can't be angry is obviously not an option....

I don't understand why anyone would respond to a poster who is asking for help with a grammer lesson What

.

I also think that if the post had been read fully, all of these clarification questions could have been answered.

By the way, so could many of this thread's future questions.

OP - you're doing a huge mitzva. She is clearly having issues, is she seeing a therapist? As for the cell phone, your house, your rules. As someone else said, sit down when no one is upset and together set up rules for both of you. Ones that both of you can follow and live with. Much hatzlacha

greenfire

Sat, Jan 12 2008, 7:57 pm

there is a fine line - here we have an emotionally insecure teenager - rebellious to religion - and violating shabbos which is your peace and serenity ...

she needs to know through thick & thin you will always be there for her - remind her that all teens go through insecurity issues - as not being a little kid yet not quite the adult ...

while you don't want to shove religion down her throat - as we know that never works (and yes they will only rebel more) - she does definately need to know that she must respect it in your "daled amos"; as she would want her space to be respected as well - she can make rules in her own house when she is an adult ...

get her a punching bag to release her tension - or a big pillow - and suggest punching it instead of slamming the doors and creating extra stress for those around you waking up your daughter ...

don't forget she has issues not having her parents taking care of her (where are they?!) and that is an emotional void - continue talking to her - and get her therapy as well ...

it's not an easy deal, especially being so young yourself - keep praying and don't give up !!!

mumoo ↓

Sat, Jan 12 2008, 8:24 pm

GAMZu wrote:

How about, instead of telling her she can do certain things on shabbos (which she can't!) tell her that you expect her to observe shabbos fully. But if she decides not to, you don't want to know about it. Meaning, do whatever you want, just make sure we don't see it, hear it, or be affected by it in any way.

I don't think you can force Shabbos observance down someone's throat- but you can have house rules. if she wants to live there (what's the alternative) she will abide by your house rules. Get her shabbos lights, timers, whatever it takes to have a pleasant Shabbos. Overlook the infractions like you would with a child- if a child finds a muktza toy, you don't punish him, you let it go and wait for a teachable moment.

Go out of your way to make her Shabbos enjoyable. Play games, have conversations, laugh and sing. Shabbos is not the time to be punitive, bitter, annoyed or angry.

People's ability to connect to Hashem and their desire to do His mitzvos is directly correlated to how pleasant Shabbosim were with their family

↑ mumoo

Sun, Jan 13 2008, 1:29 am

GAMZu wrote:

mumoo, I didn't mean that they should force her to keep shabbos.
I meant that they leave the decision up to her... and if she decides to do s/t which is not allowed on shabbos, she should make sure the rest of the family will not know of it or be affected by it.

I guess that's what I meant too, gamzu. Like she couldn't bring treife into the house, because that's the house rules, but if she ch"v was to eat it Sad

it would have to be out of range.

we just hope for all our children and any others that come our way, we protray Yiddishkeit in the most positive way possible. Shabbos is perfect. If a frei was to see a proper Shabbos, there's no way they would not want for themselves. So I feel if someone comes to my house for Shabbos and walks away unimpressed, it's something I did wrong.

↑ amother

Sun, Jan 13 2008, 11:27 pm

I also dont know why anyone would respond to someones post for help and advice with a lesson on grammer!!!!!

leave your 'pet peeves' at the door of other peoples posts who just want solid advice and maybe some encouragement in their very hard situation.

To the OP: Your doing a wonderful thing, I really admire you.
Try not be afraid to make your ground rules just try to do it without confrontation. The door slamming and noise making is part of the stage shes going through. Maybe take her out for a coffee or whatever and have a 'chat' with her, taking her out of the context of your house might help: you cant slam doors in a coffee shop. Explain how much you care for her etc etc but there are certain things that just cant happen in the house such as x y z......especially door slamming at the expense of waking up one of the children....