Miracle amidst the tragedy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 6:13 pm

from the way I remember it told to me, the guy was allllll enthusiastic. I am worried though that I remember the tone of voice of the person who told me the story, but not who it was! shock

ChossidMom ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:17 pm

I don't understand the whole debate.
Motek related a story.
Each person can interperet it and do what they want with it.

It's clear that one person had a personal miracle. Just like the guy who missed his flight and his plane exploded over Lockerbie (read about that in a hashgacha pratis book).
My conclusion is: It ALWAYS pays to listen to your rebbe!!!

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:24 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

My conclusion is: It ALWAYS pays to listen to your rebbe!!!

How do we know that the fill-in guy wasn't told by his rebbe that the trip was a great idea?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:54 pm

So it means that sometimes they may be wrong, when giving advice like this.

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 3:56 pm

wow amother you must be a novi!

c'mon you are filling in details to a story and drawing a conclusion about tzaddikim being wrong from something you made up.

↑ Crayon210

Wed, Dec 19 2007, 4:07 pm

amother wrote:

So it means that sometimes they may be wrong, when giving advice like this.

Or that it's the right thing, though we don't understand what that means. Crying

↑ ChossidMom ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:08 am

Rebbes (Admorim) don't give "wrong" advice.
When you listen to your rebbe it becomes the "right" advice.

I have yet to hear a story where a real rebbe told someone to do something and that someone got hurt or killed.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 3:39 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I have yet to hear a story where a real rebbe told someone to do something and that someone got hurt or killed.

mmmm.... all the rebbeim opposing alia before ww2?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 3:44 am

and if they hadn't opposed it? do we know what could have happened then?

ever come across science fiction books of people that went back in time and tried to "fix" things, only making them worse?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 3:55 am

No idea of what would have happened (well actually yes, but I'm keeping my mind open), but still it's not true that you never get hurt from listening, or from a mitzva. I wish. But it's not true.

↑ Clarissa ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 5:15 am

Ruchel wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

I have yet to hear a story where a real rebbe told someone to do something and that someone got hurt or killed.

mmmm.... all the rebbeim opposing alia before ww2?

I wanted to give that example, as well.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:06 pm

It says that harming someone spiritually is worse than harming someone physically (ex. Moav vs. Mitzrayim). We know that the VAST MAJORITY of Jews who left Europe, became irreligious (and in many cases they or their descendents intermarried and cut off their line), and one could say that this spiritual death was worse than dying al kidush Hashem as religious Jews.

↑ Clarissa ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:13 pm

I'm speechless. Never, in my wildest dreams, did I think someone would attempt to put a positive spin on the horrors that befell the victims of the Holocaust.

Before you say, "Who said it was a good thing," and act indignant, own up to what you just posted, which is that it might be said that it's preferable to be starved, shot, tortured, mutilated, watch your children be killed before your eyes and burned alive than to become a non-religious Jew.

This thread just gets better and better. Or should I say one could say that this thread just gets better and better.

chanieTLS

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:18 pm

Isn't the reason we are mechallel shabbos to save a life even for a non religious Jew so that in the future there may be opportunities to keep shabbos? Why is certain death in WWII preferable to possible difficulty with keeping Torah & mitzvos?

↑ DefyGravity

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:24 pm

Makes no sense to me either. Isn't there a little spark inside each Jew that can always ignite at any point in their lifetime?

↑ Clarissa ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:40 pm

Forget the spark. Don't they deserve to live, no matter what they might have become? I guess next time I see one of those horrible pictures of piles of corpses, including the elderly and the babies, I can say, "Better dead than assimilated."

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:45 pm

Clarissa - What do you have to say to parents who refused to give their children over to gentiles during the war, saying - better they die a Jew than live as gentiles? Do you condemn them?

chanie TLS - it wasn't about "difficulties", it was about the almost 100% assimilation from Yiddishkeit

defy - yes, we say "where there is life, there is hope" - the rabbis who advised Jews not to leave Europe were not knowingly condemning those people to death! The question wasn't: Rabbi, should I emigrate and live, very possibly as a [gentile], or stay and die?

and the answer wasn't: stay and die

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:49 pm

clarissa you are twisting her words. she did NOT put a positive spin on the holocaust, G-d forbid.
But we all grew up with stories of tzadikim dating from way back when.
...Chana and her 7 sons giving up their lives rather then even just appearing to worship idols.
She watched her children die clarissa, what she went through was no less horrid then the holocaust victims!

how about the countless other jews in history mutilated, burned, tortured rather then give up their faith.

and here we have an example where jews weren't even forced to give up their faith. You really expected the Rabbeim to condone that?

↑ Clarissa

Thu, Dec 20 2007, 1:59 pm

I've started, and deleted, responses to the last two posts about five times but I think it's best that I step out of this discussion. I know the way it's going to go if I continue, having had experiences like this here, and I'm just going to get too angry and expend too much energy, which is totally not merited here.

I'll just keep repeating to myself, "It's only a message board, it's not real life, it's only a message board, it's not real life..."