Miracle amidst the tragedy

↑ boruchhashem ↓

Mon, Dec 10 2007, 1:00 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I'm not sure the group of shochtim motek is talking about is the same group BH is talking about. I know the group BH is talking about, but there was a second group,in Eretz Yiosroel, 2 of the shochtim were my great uncle and 2nd cousin. Everyonein the car was killed.

Looks like motek and bh are talking about the same thin, mamabear. My sil's father was R' Shmuel Hecht. So we are on the same page. Not sure though, what you are talking about.

sarahd ↓

Mon, Dec 10 2007, 4:09 am

I remember that accident. What a tragedy it was. Crying

The chassid had a personal nes occur to him that he should remember and commemorate along with his family. For the rest of us, it's hard to compensate for the tragedy of six people who lost their lives by the good fortune of one person who avoided the crash.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 7:57 pm

sarahd wrote:

exactly so

we hear stories like this over and over, don't we? Were those of you who find this uninspiring, inspired at all by any stories after the collapse of the WTC? After all, anybody who was saved because of Selichos and finishing late or the many other reasons that people weren't in the buildings, didn't help the thousands who died. How about when you hear a miraculous story after a terrorist act in Israel? Do you dismiss it because of the people who died?

Another thing, although I posted this in the Inspirational section, it would probably have been bettter off in the Hashgacha Pratis thread. If you don't think of it as inspirational but an example of Hashgacha Pratis, you might feel differently about it. And yes, Hashgacha Pratis is not only about those who miss the plane that crashed, but those who were on it.

bashinda - do you think this story would wow you if you knew the Gerrer mashgiach, maybe was related to him?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 8:17 pm

motek, I'm not speaking for the other posters, I think the issue I'm having with the story is different from theirs.

yes I was inspired by stories of 9/11 like the guy who got the plane for his tefilin.

The difference though between the stories is that by his getting off the plane, no one else had to die in his place. He was just one less person.

But in the story you are telling, because the mashgiach was away, a fill-in took his place. If the mashgiach wasn't there then the fill-in would still be alive.
That is what is bothering me.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 8:51 pm

EstiS wrote:

If the mashgiach wasn't there then the fill-in would still be alive.

Would he be? Or would he have been killed by a maniac driver back in Israel possibly? Do you think his time was not up and he somehow got killed by mistake?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 8:54 pm

I hear what you are saying. I'm not complaining that it happened that way, after all Hashem has his plans, ......but the way the story is told that the Gerer Rebbe told him to come at a different time which led to the switch, makes me feel that the story is missing details.

Ruchel ↓

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 10:16 pm

I heard of a chiloni soldier who was the only one to survive a bombing (I think). He came to see a rabbi and told him" rabbi, I have faith now, I know G-d exists because he saved me!!". The rabbi threw him out. There are also people who became frum because they survived the concentration camp. What can I say. It probably takes a certain mindset...

I suppose the chossid feels very bad about all this.

shalhevet ↓

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 5:17 am

Motek wrote:

EstiS wrote:

If the mashgiach wasn't there then the fill-in would still be alive.

Would he be? Or would he have been killed by a maniac driver back in Israel possibly? Do you think his time was not up and he somehow got killed by mistake?

By the same logic, even if the chossid who was saved was in the car, nothing would have happened to him because his time wasn't up.

I also find this story to be in bad taste.

realeez

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 12:26 pm

I think the issue is in how it was phrased.

Quote:

Many years ago, 1976 to be exact, on Chanuka, there was a car accident in which everybody was killed, 5 shochtim and a mashgiach (not sure how many people in all)....The mashgiach who was killed was not the regular mashgiach but someone who came from Israel.

Had the story been written that there was a man who should have been there but wasn't because of advice from his Rebbe, we all would have appreciated the neis. Here it sounds like another man died instead of the mashgiach...

DefyGravity ↓

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 12:34 pm

I might think, "Wow, it's incredible that the Rav had foresight and prevented a tragedy from happening to a certain individual", but is it inspiring? Not really. I don't think 9/11 stories are inspiring either. . . I'm just grateful that not everyone had to die senselessly.

↑ boruchhashem

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 12:39 pm

I have a request to the mods. Is it please possible to lock or erase this thread, since this has no point in some of our eyes. It is just very painful to read over and over again. Thanks. Please noone take it personnally, since I mean noone in particular, it is just that I am very close to the story, and it hurts to see this debate going on. Thanks again.

↑ Clarissa ↓

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 12:42 pm

I agree with boruchhashem. For me, this thread also hits too close to home, but for other reasons. I think it's a pointless and potentially painful debate. I know I don't have to read it, but I just wish it wasn't here at all.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 7:02 pm

If you don't like reading it, why do you read it? I agree, there's no purpose in debating it. One doesn't need to like or not like the story. It is what it is. It happened. Maaseh sh'haya.

As for bad taste, I find that an exceedingly odd comment. How can the metzius be in bad taste?

I personally think that ruchel, your story is in bad taste, or more accurately - the rabbi was a fool. How dare he undermine a person's faith?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:32 pm

Motek wrote:

I don't know. I don't even remember who told me this story! But my understanding of the story is that it's a tiny bit yucky to find faith for such reasons (because everyone is dead, but Mr big ego has survived), and the rabbi couldn't stand it.

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 9:01 pm

why?
did the Rabbi prefer he die too?
shouldn't the Rabbi be happy that one person survived?
shouldn't the Rabbi encourage him in his new found emuna?

its a very strange story, I wonder if that story too is missing details

↑ Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 9:09 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I suppose the rabbi didn't like the selfishness of not feeling sad for the others. I would love more details too.

well then clearly we are missing details. As in, did he come to the Rabbi in a celebratory mood, or was he serious and contemplative.

One can be thankful to hashem for saving them for a disaster that others went through, while mourning what happened to the others at the same time.

again, thats not my issue with motek's story.