Gift on condition NOT to give ma'aser from it.

amother ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 12:55 pm

I know that this is going to make me sound petty and heartless... but so be it.

I have a friend who is having some financial difficulties at this time. Winter is approaching and she and her husband are behind on their bills, sometimes have difficulty putting food on the table and have no idea how they are going to pay to heat their home this winter.

I am organizing a group effort to help my friend (secretly, of course) by gathering money from friends and neighbors to help them pay their bills. However, I find myself with somewhat of a dilemma.

This couple has a rule - they *always* give ma'aser -- no matter how tight matters are, they give. I think it's wonderful and commendable. But it puts me in a difficult spot.

DH and I are ready to give $400 now to help toward the heating bills (and perhaps more in the coming months). However, we *don't* want them to take $40 from this $400 and give it to tzedaka -- we want it all to go to the heating bills. These are the sort of people that even if we paid it directly to their oil company, they'd probably take $40 of their own personal money and give it to tzedaka.

Now, DH and I aren't exactly rolling in dough either. Yes, we have enough to live on and a little extra to give, but, at the moment, I can only afford $400. I can't afford to give them $400 plus the $40 that they'd give to tzedakah, and I want them to get $400 worth of help, not $360.

I suppose my question is, can I give them the gift on the legal condition that they NOT give ma'aser from it (or compensate for it from their own money, which partially defeats the purpose).

Like I said, I know it makes me seem petty and cheap. I feel horrible about it. But we just can't afford to give the extra 40 right now and we dont want to generate a $40 tzedakah "bill" for them either -- they have enough expenses to worry about.

Cheap in New York.

red sea ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:11 pm

are you giving them the $ from your maaser $ or your own ? if its from your own u can give from your maaser the amount they will give to maaser. when you give a gift I dont really see how you can tell them what to do with it.

I hear what you're saying BUT - if they are so bad a sitch your 360 will help them enormously so how does it make it better if you say if you waste 40 of the dollars keeping the mitzvah of maaser the way you do - I dont care enough to help out ? Sorta sounds that way.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:13 pm

Right. But if I do that, then they'll take $40 from the food budget, or not pay the electric bill to give the $40 to tzedakah. At the moment, they're tight all over. It would defeat the purpose if I were to buy $400 worth of groceries from them, only to have their fridge and freezer turned off because they chose to give $40 to tzedakah rather than pay the electric bill.

(and yes, they're the type to do that -- that's why I asked the question).

Cheap in New York

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:17 pm

red sea wrote:

Yes, I know it makes me sound uncaring and cheap; but I want them to use all the money on themselves.

We're going to give them the money either way. The question is, how can we convince them to use the entire 400 on themselves.

Cheap in New York

↑ red sea ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:31 pm

amother wrote:

Don't belittle the help you'd be giving them, help is help and every last cent to s/o in a sitch like such is help, period.
If you dont help (for ex) they wont have heat or food. Why do you think they'd take the entire amount and just pay the heat or just buy food, wouldn't they logically split it? Have some food and pay enough of the utilities not to have them shut off?
Its not like your saying they'll take the $ and buy a tom-tom, they're going to use it for basic existance. Youre gonna put them $360 out of being indigent with your 400$. If you care enough to help, then help. Why don't you ask if you can deduct 40$ more off your maaser, if that'll help you feel better about it? But I really can't understand that you can give such terms, they have backup for their stand , the poorest of the poor on the receiving end of tzeddakah also are to keep the mitzvah of maaser, with multiple sources avail to back that up. If they do not take leniencies in that mitzvah, it just seems controlling to dictate such terms. But to be fair, I can understand how it would bother you that you didn't help the whole amount that you wanted to.

gl with your decision.

↑ red sea

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

red sea wrote:

sorry, just read this,
you can ask them, ask them to ask a shaila, but there is a good chance of not convincing them if they keep maaser like that. I think its really wonderful that you are such a good friend and will give tzeddakah to those close to you, many people tend to overlook doing just that.

Last edited by red sea on Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ GAMZu

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 1:53 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

If things are that tight for them, they're prob. not alllowd to give mayser. Somone should clue them in.

Exactly. Get someone to talk to them. Their first responsibility is their DEBTS (bills) -otherwise they're stealing in order to give tzedaka. (Using a service without paying.)

I am willing to bet ppl better off than they are are enjoying their $.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 4:05 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

This is my $0.02...

If you give tzedaka, they may spend it in ways you don't like. That's part of tzedaka, and not really you business. Let them worry about their ma'aser obligations or exemptions, and don't be so petty that you want the money to be spent "your way".

Right. Like I said, I know that its petty - but I'd rather my money go entirely to them (people I know and am actively trying to help) than to strangers. Sometimes I feel like this makes me a completely rotten person -- after all, there are other people who need help as well. Perhaps I need help too -- not monetary help...

Cheap in New York

shalhevet

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 4:19 pm

GAMZu wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

If things are that tight for them, they're prob. not alllowd to give mayser. Somone should clue them in.

Gamzu is right. You are not allowed to give tzedaka if you have debts, because you have to pay your debts first. (Yes, we asked a shaila embarrassed

) Obviously that doesn't mean you go and pay for a round the world cruise and then have payments to make. But if you borrowed in good faith and/or haven't paid someone for goods and/or services, your first halachic (never mind common sense) priority is to pay back.

How this helps you in suggesting what your friend should do, I don't know. Confused

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 4:33 pm

Quote:

As far as I know, if one receives a gift of money for a specific purpose, then there is no obligation to give ma'aser from it. So the solution would be to tell them that this is for "the electric/grocery/gas bill" etc.

But it seems that these people would do it even if they are not obligated.

OP kol hakovod for wanting to help out. That is really very nice.
But I dont think you can make any conditions. You can tell them whether they are halachicly obligated or not but thats about it.
This happens many times. When people do a chesed and then they feel the right to "control" the "receiver".
Take a case of a woman who offered her kimpeturin SIL to take all her other kids for a couple of hours one afternoon so that she could rest up. Later she found out that the sil spend her time ironing all her tablecloths. The woman was majorly upset, bc she felt the sil should have taken a nap and rested up. But was she right? I dont think so. If you offer your money or services you have no right to demand how it should be spent/utilized. Obviously the sil felt she would be more calm and relaxed knowing that her tablecloths were all ironed.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 4:41 pm

amother wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I completely understand where you're coming from, but I think that the best way to think of it is that it's your mitzvah to give to people in need, not to worry about how they're spending it. Of course, we're all Yiddishe mamas Wink

, and by nature are concerned with how people are spending their money (not in a bad way, just in a concerned way!), but we have to realize that part of the mitzvah is just giving the money and letting it go.

shoshb

Mon, Oct 15 2007, 4:52 pm

We asked a shaila once about giving ma'aser on gift money, and we were told as follows (IIRC).
If someone gives you an unconditional cash gift, you are required to give maaser.
If someone gives you money "to buy a table" (say), you may use all the money for the table, and need not give maaser.
Now, I don't recall specifically if you MUST use all the money for the table, or CAN give maaser if you want, you'd have to check with a Rav.
So, if you specify that this is money for the heating bill, they certainly need not give maaser, but they may choose to do so from their own money. And you can never control what someone does with their own money!!!!
And for the record, you're neither cheap nor petty. You're a caring, generous friend.