Is a Kesubah really special?!

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 3:55 pm

miriamnechama wrote:

nowadays noone writes an amout. (sefardim do) cus in reality compensation is much higher and the courts and beis din have to take everythinginto account.

I don't know about you, but my kesubah has an amount in it, and I'm not a sefardi.

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 3:57 pm

mimivan wrote:

The desecration of the document aside, how do they decide who the bride is? And what a Virgin in their world is?

A virgin is someone who has not had penetrative s-x. The status is self-reported (unless, of course, the bride was previously married or there is some other public knowledge that she is not a virgin). No one has to submit to a doctor's exam to determine virginity.

Tammy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:04 pm

A virgin is a girl who didn't have relations. I have heard of non virgins being "treated" as virgins and called betula, though, but also of non virgin women complaining "everyone would know".

One of my cousins, a divorcee with two kids, remarried and had betula written - but she's not that observant and maybe the ketuba is conservative.

Mimi: g-y ketuba... I wonder who gets the get? who does the 7 circles? who wears the kittel? who breaks the glass?? lol
Some time ago someone posted a Mo (doubt it) gay chuppa. Both wore a kittel. It was taken down very soon of course, and I only saw the first pic.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:06 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

No one has to submit to a doctor's exam to determine virginity.

Tammy

b'h!
Although I learned the chosson has to know.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:08 pm

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

No one has to submit to a doctor's exam to determine virginity.

Tammy

b'h!
Although I learned the chosson has to know.

Yes, he does -- but it's still self-reported by the girl.

Tammy

↑ mumoo

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:14 pm

Ruchel wrote:

One of my cousins, a divorcee with two kids, remarried and had betula written - but she's not that observant and maybe the ketuba is conservative.

if she has two children, who is she fooling? anyway noone but the kallah realy needs to see it, but I would wonder if it becomes null in the case of c'v necessity.

it was discovered that at least one of the eidem on our kesubah were not kosher (long story) dh and I were remarried and the kesubah we were instructed to get could not have the word besula in it.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:20 pm

On h.com they discuss this often, and apparenly "besulah" is written regardless. It's what the chosson knows that's important.

I know in Lub., what's written is the TRUTH..and from that, the rbbonim know to read kesubas off the mike, to protct ppl's privacy.

↑ TammyTammy

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:24 pm

mumoo wrote:

anyway noone but the kallah realy needs to see it, but I would wonder if it becomes null in the case of c'v necessity.

Generally speaking, as long as the husband is aware of the true status, he is free to bind himself to the payment of a virgin.

Quote:

it was discovered that at least one of the eidem on our kesubah were not kosher (long story) dh and I were remarried and the kesubah we were instructed to get could not have the word besula in it.

Probably because the new kesubah was not meant to be retroactive but only to be valid from this point forward, and at that point, having been married for a while, you were obviously no longer a virgin.

(NB -- the above is my guess. I don't know for certain, so I could certainly be wrong.)

Tammy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:41 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

No one has to submit to a doctor's exam to determine virginity.

Tammy

b'h!
Although I learned the chosson has to know.

Yes, he does -- but it's still self-reported by the girl.

Tammy

In some places it is. In France they ask the girl. I got married in Israel and I thought they assumed it was betula, but months after I actually asked dh and he said the rabbi told him, trying to have a neutral business like tone, "that's betula, right?" or something like that LOL

Is it true that in some places they don't use iteta anymore and write nothing? and that in other places they write it but don't read it?

I also heard there is another status (not widow or divorced) that was used for women who had forbidden relationships ([gentile], married guy...) and that is not used anymore?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:44 pm

mumoo wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

One of my cousins, a divorcee with two kids, remarried and had betula written - but she's not that observant and maybe the ketuba is conservative.

if she has two children, who is she fooling?

anyway noone but the kallah realy needs to see it, but I would wonder if it becomes null in the case of c'v necessity.

I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't even know of it.

I think I learned it becomes null. She divorced her second dh too, but I don't know what they did.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 4:45 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I know in Lub., what's written is the TRUTH..and from that, the rbbonim know to read kesubas off the mike, to protct ppl's privacy.

how do they know it's the truth?

Do they read all ketubos off the mike? because it would be very obvious if only some of them were... anyway, I have heard iteta read on mike a few times.

↑ mali ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 5:10 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

On h.com they discuss this often, and apparenly "besulah" is written regardless. It's what the chosson knows that's important.

If it's written regardless of her status, that can deem the ketubah invalid and put their marriage into question. Sounds ridiculous to me that for one word which is written in Aramaic and chances are only the Rabbi and couple will know about it, a kallah should want her marriage document to be void.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 8:28 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Whenever I say that doesn't sound right, a bunch of the h.com'niks come after me.

Someone told me many of them are anti chassidic if not anti frum, so I'm not surprised. Such an attitude... that's why I left and Breslov too.

shoshb

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 9:20 pm

I believe that the word "besula" in a ksuba is used in relation to money. My understanding is that the Chasan is agreeing to pay the value of a bsula. As long as he knows the truth, and agrees to pay that value regardless, the ksuba is perfectly valid.
Don't remember where I learned that. Maybe yoetzet?

↑ mali ↓

Wed, Oct 03 2007, 6:50 am

shoshb wrote:

A Ketubah is no joke!! Every detail has to be exact. I cannot believe an orthodox Rav would allow this wedding to go through. Confused

Tamiri ↓

Wed, Oct 03 2007, 7:18 am

Actually, the ketuba as a monetary contract is pretty useless these days. We heard a talk about it a while ago. It's NOT a pre nuptual agreement, and it's not an agreement between sides since only the chatan signs it. So it's a pretty-much invalid document, I guess. In fact, there are many chatanim who don't adhere to what they signed anyway like taking care of the parnassa of the family - many wives are doing that these days.

Bzgirl

Wed, Oct 03 2007, 9:24 am

What if the girl s hymen is broken, do to exercise or horseback riding, does she have to report that? Also I don't recall anyone asking me, are you a virgin? do people just assume that you are?