why do we not use the same fork

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Why do we not use the same fork

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amother ↓

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 1:28 am

after we eat fish and then meat?

are fish and meat allowed on the same plate?

HindaRochel ↓

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 1:40 am

It is a strong minhag, introduced because at the time it came to be forbidden it was thought that mixing meat and fish was a health risk factor.

I don't deliberately serve the two foods on the same plate, or with the same utensils, but if it happens it is fine. No reall issuor.

ruthanne

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 7:50 am

AFAIK eating meat and fish is a strong issur and utensils should not be used for both at the same time. And we certainly dont eat them on the same plate. Thats why we put out 2 forks for the meal on Shabbos.
Fish and milk is not such a strong issur although many people dont mix them either.

Mimisinger

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 7:53 am

Sephardim do not eat milk and fish together, but it certainly ok for askenzim - see lox and cream cheese.

As far as meat and fish it is an issur as it is a sakana - we are very makpid to have different forks, different plates and to rinse your mouth in between, or eat a piece of challah. Another option is to wash off the plates or forks. But it is a huge issur - as strong as kashrus. You cannot cook fish and meat in an oven at the same time unless one is covered.

Ask your Rav!

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 8:45 am

It is not the same as Kashrut of milk and meat. If you place the meat and the fish on the plate together, by accident, or use the same fork, the issues are not the same as if you had placed a spoon or fork into milk and then meat.

The reason I mention this is because at a wedding a friend placed some salad on her plate, and realized afterward that it had meat in it. We had been served fish or chicken as well as the salads. There was nothing to do but push the food to the side, and maybe wipe off ehr fork. It is not of the same level as meat and milk. Nothing was treifed up.

But it is a strong minhag not to mix the two and I would never do it deliberately, nor would I neglect to eat/drinnk something between.

chocolate moose

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 8:59 am

I have eaten in homes that take everything off the table after Fish.

Motek ↓

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 12:34 pm

It's not a minhag but a halacha.

Quote:

The Shulchan Arukh states that we need to be careful not to eat meat and fish together, because it carries a danger of "tzaraat" an affliction of the skin mentioned in the Torah (YD 116:2). The source is the gemara in Pesachim (76b), which states that fish that are roasted together with meat can't be eaten with milk, because even though there is no contact between the two foods in roasting, the fish do absorb some of the taste of the meat and so this transgresses the separation of meat and milk. The passage continues, "Mar bar Rav Ashi said, it is forbidden even in salt [the usual way of eating fish] because it carries a danger of odor and 'something else'". Rashi and other commentaries explain that this unmentionable 'something else' is tzaraat.

http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/576.....t.htm

Quote:

Some prominent poskim contend that although mixing fish and meat was unhealthy in the days of Chazal, today the nature of the world has changed and it is no longer unhealthy(Magen Avraham 173:1). This concept is referred to as “nishtaneh hateva,” that nature has altered since the days of Chazal (see Tosafos, Moed Katan 11a; Gemara Niddah 3a).

Others contend that Chazal were referring to a specific type of fish and that their concern does not extend to most varieties (Shu”t Chasam Sofer, Yoreh Deah #101). Other poskim rule that one should still not eat fish and meat together since Chazal may have been aware of a medical issue unknown to modern medicine (see Shu”t ShvusYaakov 3:70; Shu”t Chasam Sofer, Yoreh Deah #101). The accepted practice is to be stringent (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 116:3)

http://64.233.169.104/search?q.....UTF-8

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 2:05 am

thanks motek for that answer . In our family we keep this law very strictly
but I did no know why .

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 2:07 am

thanks motek for that answer. we keep this halacha in our family
but I did not know where the source was from .

↑ amother

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 4:54 am

ou/ ncsy .com
has a article about this subject .

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 6:27 am

amother wrote:

ou/ ncsy .com
has a article about this subject .

Post the link?
An interesting one is here:
http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/576.....t.htm

which would seem to indicate from the wording that, at least a one time, roasting meat and fish together was permissiable, but that the fish would become fleshig.

Ruchel ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 11:14 am

For sure it's not done everywhere... Sefardi pizzerias all serve pizzas with tuna and cheese in Paris. I also once had some kind of cake/tart with beef and fish and veggies mixed together in a kosher eatery... sometimes you also get served small appetizers with fish, that you put on bread with your knife or fork depending on the size of the fish bits, and then they serve you your meat and don't change your knife/fork.

I knew some people did not do it though. My dh knows a family who has 3 sets of dishes!

TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 11:57 am

Halevai people should keep all safety considerations as well as they keep the meat/fish separation. I'd venture far more people have died as a result of smoking, not wearing seatbelts and other common-sense safety precautions than have died by eating fish with meat.

Tammy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 2:10 pm

Well Tammy, many rabbis say smoking is assur!

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 2:34 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Well Tammy, many rabbis say smoking is assur!

Right, but you'll notice that there are still plenty of people who smoke, but almost no one eats fish with meat.

If it were up to me and I could swap the two (I.e. so that people would be extremely makpid on not smoking but would eat fish with meat casually), I'd do it in an instant.

Tammy

farmom

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 2:44 pm

Ruchel wrote:

... Sefardi pizzerias all serve pizzas with tuna and cheese in Paris.

As someone above mentioned, the halacha is not the same for meat and milk. Some opinions hold that this issur is only for milk, not cheese, (think cream cheese and lox) while some hold that it is only for meat and fish. Some rabbanim do pasken that it goes for all milk and cheese with fish, as well as meat with fish.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 2:45 pm

True, to me frum people shouldn't be smoking. I don't understand it, except Bts who are trying to quit.

I do not know how many people mix meat and fish or fish and milk, I know it is done in my country according to what I see in restaurants and people's homes. I thought not mixing fish and milk was Chabad minhag, until I saw it mixed in Chabad restaurants. Fish and meat I learned about the prohibition online embarrassed

I personally do not mix on purpose, but do not avoid either. I do not change dishes/cutlery.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 2:46 pm

FWIW, we have no problem with fish/milk.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 2:29 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Halevai people should keep all safety considerations as well as they keep the meat/fish separation.

Halevai. It's a mitzva to take care of one's health.

Quote:

I'd venture far more people have died as a result of smoking, not wearing seatbelts and other common-sense safety precautions than have died by eating fish with meat.

so?

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Mon, Sep 24 2007, 9:26 am

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Halevai people should keep all safety considerations as well as they keep the meat/fish separation.

Halevai. It's a mitzva to take care of one's health.

Quote:

I'd venture far more people have died as a result of smoking, not wearing seatbelts and other common-sense safety precautions than have died by eating fish with meat.

so?

You're perfectly correct, Motek that there is a mitzvah to take care of your health... and that's my exact point.

Everyone is so makpid on not eating fish with meat... but they are not makpid on smoking which causes far, far, far (I don't think I can add enough "far"s here) more deaths than mixing fish with meat. I just find it mind-boggling.

Tammy

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