Advice: Single, pregnant friend and mikvah?

amother ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 9:09 am

My non-religious friend just told me she's pregnant. She and her (Jewish) boyfriend have been planning on getting engaged and married, but this unplanned pregnancy surprised them before they got around to it. They are now planning on a quick, Jewish wedding before the baby is born. Now with a baby on the way, she says she wants to become more "tradtional" B"H I expect that she'll ask me to help her learn about taharas hamishpocha before she goes to the mikvah for her wedding.

Generally speaking, does the fact that she became pregnant out of wedlock affect her going to/preparation for the mikvah for her wedding in any way? (Besides it being a little strange - for me - to see a 7-8 month pregnant woman toiveling for her wedding.)

What about her unborn child? I'm really unfamiliar with the halachos. Both parents are Jewish, but the baby was conceived out of weddlock, but will be born into wedlock. Can this child marry anyone in the future? Are there any limitations?

TIA

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 9:17 am

Yes, they should definitely get married AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! She should toivel, learn taharas hamishpocha, etc.

Obviously this isn't an ideal situation, but BH no, there are no real implications for the child.

You're probably thinking of a "mamzer," a "bastard." In English, this term is used to mean any child born out of wedlock, however, al pi halacha, this category is a child born through adultery-- a married woman pregnant by a different man.

So your friend should be fine. Shkoyach to you for taking the initiative and helping her though this-- and unexpected pregnancy has gotto be tough!

Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 10:06 am

It will be a very positive thing for her to tovel properly; it will be a merit for her and her baby's neshama. The baby is Jewish and can marry anyone. She should study with a trained kallah teacher.

shalhevet ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 10:10 am

She should count 5 (without being with her fiancee) and then 7 (with bedikas) like anyone else, even though she doesn't see blood. Check all the details with a rav. A kalla who is not a betula has slightly different halachas. If there are any medical problems with the bedikas also ask a doctor and a rav.

There are no ramifications for the child. A child conceived when his parents were not married (if the mother was not married to someone else at the time) is not a mamzer. You can encourage her that, since she is already in this situation, the best thing she can do for her child spiritually is to start keeping TH.

↑ Isramom8

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 10:17 am

Also, make sure the woman was not previously halachically married to a Jew but didn't receive a get - if this is the case, the baby might be a mamzer. If the situation is unclear, ask a rav. You can PM me if you need the phone number of an understanding rav who deals with non-religious people.

Mama Bear

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 10:35 am

If both of them are halachically single, this child is fine. It is not a mamzer, just a ben niddah. There are no halachic problems with regards to gettiung married.

justanothermother

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 12:24 pm

When she goes the the Mikvah, make sure to arrange for someone very sensitive to be her atendant. You don't want her to be turned off by an unkind or ignorant remark.

su7kids

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 12:29 pm

Lubavitchers on the board, help me with this one: I believe the Rebbe once told someone who became Baal Tshuva that they were upset that the one thing they could never change and do tshuva for was the fact that they were conceived not in Tahara (with parents observing Taharas Hamishpocha) and the person was told that if they themselves are meticulous about the Mitzvah, they will get the reward, retroactively.

Not the same, but some merit. So, surely a child who is conceived in Nidda and the PARENTS do teshuva, at least the child will be BORN in Tahara.

Ruchel ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 3:33 pm

If she told you about becoming traditional, she may want to learn th to go to the mikve before the wedding, but she may not keep it at all after. To many, traditional means the traditions, not the halachos... this is how I would have understood the thing.

As for the child, he isn't a mamzer (cv) or pegum. No restriction on marriage.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 3:38 pm

su7kids: The mitzvah of mikvah is retroactive. That means that if the parents start keeping TH-- it counts for the child as if they always did.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

su7kids: The mitzvah of mikvah is retroactive. That means that if the parents start keeping TH-- it counts for the child as if they always did.

Sorry, that makes no sense. Do you have a source? A person can do teshuva for something but they can't change reality.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Aug 29 2007, 4:48 pm

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

su7kids: The mitzvah of mikvah is retroactive. That means that if the parents start keeping TH-- it counts for the child as if they always did.

Sorry, that makes no sense. Do you have a source? A person can do teshuva for something but they can't change reality.

That's what I think too.
But some say if you make teshuva your sin never happened. Makes no sense to me, but....

Motek

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:32 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

If both of them are halachically single, this child is fine. It is not a mamzer, just a ben niddah.

JUST a ben niddah? shock

True, there are no marriage restrictions, but it's hardly "fine."

Such a child is pagum and it has a spiritually negative effect which can be manifested in obvious ways. There is a story in Meseches Kalla about 3 sages who saw a man without a head-covering. One said, he must be a ben nidda, another one said he's a mamzer, and Rabbi Akiva said he's both a ben nidda and a mamzer. Turned out, R' Akiva was right.

p.s. the only person referred to as a ben nidda and a mamzer is Yoshka

The prominent posek Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked about whether one could/should marry a ben nidda (which is the case with many baalei teshuva) and he said that if you see that he/she has exemplary middos and yiras shomayim, then they are obviously not pagum! (would like to see this inside myself if someone knows the source)

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:46 pm

I read R' Feinstein's psak online, but I don't remember the details.

How could the child not be ben nidda if he is, even if he is great?

I have also read a bat nidda can even marry the Cohen Gadol (!).

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:49 pm

Motek wrote:

JUST a ben niddah? shock

this child is already conceived in this world - how dare you compare it to "Yoshka"?! shock

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 6:22 pm

I think there may be something if the child's father is a Kohen. I think the child loses the status of a Kohen or can't act as one. My grandmother (not religious) was born to an unmarried couple and then married a Kohen. My father and all my brothers do not consider themselves Kohanim. I think me and my sisters are also prohibited from marrying Kohanim. Maybe it has something to do with my great grandfather not being Jewish. Can someone help me out here?

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 7:24 pm

Motek wrote:

and he said that if you see that he/she has exemplary middos and yiras shomayim, then they are obviously not pagum!

does that mean that if you see he has those middos and Y S then it means he wasn't a ben niddah
or
do you mean that he loses the status of pagum?

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 8:28 pm

As someone who was conceived to a halachikally unmarried couple (my parents were married civilly but my father wasn't halachikally Jewish for a few more years, he was in the process of converting) I can only relate what I have heard from my rav in regards to myself.

I have never been told I was assur to anyone in terms of marriage as a result of my parents' marital status. I have been told that as far as keeping shiva for my father I have no obligation. As far as kibbud av v'em I have no obligation to my father but rather I have an obligation of hakaras hatov for him bringing me into the world.

This baby's father is Jewish, so my issues are not applicable.

I am married to a Kohen.

May they enjoy this baby and have a loving and blessed life together.