Your Veiw on Open Orthodoxy

↑ DrMom

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:40 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

When Chassidut developed in the 1700s, was that because there was a dearth of brains and creativity among existing halachic authorities? Or was it just a fresh approach to Judaism?

Things can always be improved and re-examined.

Everything isn't perfect as is. Until Moshiach comes, things will never be perfect. What's wrong with striving to make things better in the meantime?

Again, I am not saying that OO is a great movement or one that I endorse, but this knee-jerk reaction to any innovation in yahadut is very strange to me, especially given how many movements which were once seen as radical are seen as perfectly normative today.

Will OO be one of the successful (like Chassidut) or unsuccessful (like Reform or Lev Tahor) movements? I think it is too early to say.

cbsp

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:58 am

I think it's articles like these that are causing the commotion:

http://jewishweek.timesofisrae.....menu/

http://gatherdc.org/2017/06/21.....-bad/

I also thought this was an interesting read (article by Rabbi Gil Student) :

https://www.jewishlinknj.com/I.....d=585

Actually, here are all of Rabbi Student's articles on this topic :

https://www.torahmusings.com/?.....odoxy

Here's an article by Rabbi Gordimer. He's been writing the RW perspective on OO for many years:

https://cross-currents.com/201.....doxy/

(he's written more recent articles, this is just what I found that clarifies certain positions)

Here's a link to a Headlines program
http://podcast.headlinesbook.c.....iefs/

Open Orthodoxy Opens up about its beliefs
with David Rosenthal Author of Why Open Orthodoxy is not Orthodox
with Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer Rav in RCA
with Rabbi Asher Lopatin President, YCT

↑ SpottedBanana ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 2:18 am

DrMom wrote:

With which basics of Judaism is OO tinkering? This part is not so clear to me.

I don't trust info from a poster who pops in and unloads a rumor like "I think I heard somewhere that they don't believe in kashrut" and then disappears. I would like to hear things from OO folks themselves.

Then get educated! There is a book on this topic, dozens of articles from R' Avraham Gordimer (who works for the OU), and interviews with various YCT rebbeim on the Headlines radio show on the Nachum Segal Network (click the link and do ctrl+f "open orthodoxy").

Also, re this vs other movements that seemed radical and are now mainstream even if I disagree with some of their beliefs: Chassidut, Chabad, MO, etc never challenged the authenticity of the Torah itself. Therefore, we are working under the same framework and just disagreeing on the details. Many OO leaders (not one, not two, not three) have challenged the idea that halacha is binding, so how can they suggest changes if they aren't willing to work within that basic restriction?

Just one example off the top of my head:

"There seems to be an assumption that halacha works for every Yid. I'm not sure that's true. While halacha may indeed have a clear answer vis-a-vis who Jews should marry, I am not the embodiment of halacha. I strive to answer from a place of halachik integrity while also being sensitive to the shoel before me. Therein is the delicate balance of being open and Orthodox, whatever that means." (From Rabbi Avram Mlotek, YCT grad, when questioned about his assertion that intermarriage is neither good nor bad, quoted here)

ETA: Sorry for the cross-posting with the poster above me.

↑ tichellady

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 2:24 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Is there a problem with the halachic authorities that we have now? Is there a dearth of brains or creativity? Is there something that's missing in our world that has to be remedied? I haven't seen that. I have seen that Rabbanim have been quite nicely equal to the task of paskening on anything new - whatever it may be - as things come to the forefront.

In what way does our world live in a "little bubble"? Where do you see that Rabbanim are rejecting anything that is post 1830 shtetl? And how does Open Orthodoxy claim to rectify this (within mainstream halachic parameters)?

Yes there are a lot of problems and a lot of corruption within the batei din. Have you heard of the agunah crisis? Do you have any idea of all the tension and conflict caused by the rabbinate in Israel? Do you know anything about what it is like to try to convert today? Have you heard of the Yeshiva tuition crisis? Do you know that most charedei Jews can’t afford their lifestyle and have no skills to make a living?

Miri7

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 2:27 am

My shul may be considered to be OO by some, though the shul identifies publicly as MO. Our rabbi is a YCT graduate.

I know for sure he believes in Torah miSinai. Partnership minyanim are not allowed to meet in our shul.

We do have an active womens tefilla group, and many women, including myself and my daughters, can leyn. But women aren’t allowed to be shliach tzibbur or to leyn outside of the women’s tefilla group. We have long had a women’s megilla reading on Purim. The Sefer torah is carried through the women’s side.

We have daily minyanim, and there are a few groups that meet for shiurim or daf yomi daily. We have a lot of learning in our community.

We also have a maharat, who functions as another pastoral counselor person and education coordinator. She also gives shiurim and takes a lot of questions about TH from what I understand, from women at our shul and at several other shuls who prefer to ask her. Our Rav, not our maharat, paskens for our community.

So this is what my shul is like and I don’t see the world crumbling down. I don’t see anything that’s outside of normative Halacha. It seems like every other MO shul I’ve been a member of, except perhaps people are less judgy and insular. It is an extremely warm and friendly place.

↑ SpottedBanana ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 2:28 am

tichellady wrote:

I don't know of any Open Orthodox efforts to help any of that. There is ORA for agunot and Mesila for charedim (also Rolling Laughter

about the idea that OO cares about charedim other than considering them a thorn in their side), there have been meetings in Teaneck and bajillions of Jewish Action articles about the tuition crisis, and conversions/rabbanut problems are in Israel, where left-of-center is still nothing like OO (and I am writing this in Efrat).

↑ imasoftov

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:00 am

alis_al_kulana wrote:

"open orthodoxy" is a cancer in the heart of the Jewish world.
It must be stopped before it destroys large portions of the Jewish world, as reform and conservative in the 1950s led to over 70% assimilation of American Jews.

Whenever I hear the word cancer I think of [name removed].

ETA: I'm assuming that I was misunderstood to be saying that either the person whose name was redacted is like cancer, or should get cancer, and to clear up misunderstanding I said that because he is on video talking about which particular sins cause cancer. I'd post a link to one or just a quote but that would let people know who I'm talking about and it seems I'm not allowed to do that.

Last edited by imasoftov on Wed, Dec 27 2017, 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:43 am

InnerMe wrote:

Since this thread is still 'round..

Chanchy, just want to say that I really like your posts, and your general balanced and fair attitude on such things. But mainly that you express yourself in such a kind and non-judgmental way.

I am also wondering whether OO exists in Eretz Yisrael as it does in the US. Because I'm seeing a marked difference in responses from Israeli posters then Imas from chutz la'aretz.

Thank you so much for your compliment.

I don't know how many OO scholars there are in Israel, LWMO rabbis do exist, I don't know if they identify with YCT and the official OO movement: Rav Benny Lau, Rav Ronen Neuwirth and Rav Bigman (whom I vaguely remember may no longer identify as Orthodox so maybe not a good example). Neemani Torah VaAvoda is a LWMO organization promoting very liberal Orthodox values (mixed-gender schools for instance) this movement is a led by laymen - not rabbis. There is also Bet Hillel which is a rabbi's organization (which includes female clergy and Torah scholars) that also promotes moderate Orthodoxy but there is a very wide range of members in this organization from very liberal rabbis to more conservative (small "c") members, I guess fringe members of this organization could identify with and perhaps as OO.

Women's megilah reading are fairly common in mainstream DL communities, many mainstream DL women consult nishmat yoatzot I don't know how many women serve as full Maharat (the only community I can think of that has an official female member of clergy is Efrat I can't remember if she is a graduate of Maharat or another program). These are not considered LW practices but normal middle of the road MO/DL.

Many women are committed to learning Torah and an increasing number of women are taking leadership roles in learning and halacha through various programs. However, they are not necessarily very left-wing leaning and most are feminist and may push towards egalitarian practice but are very very committed to working within Halachic bounds and would not identify with the term OO. Again a women who is committed to learning and/or teaching gemara or halacha will be just as likely to be RWMO as LWMO. There are several programs for intensive learning for women, some give full ordination, some give partial ordination like the yoatzot program (which is completely accepted), some give no ordination like Matan IIRC.

Partnership minyanim do exist, are are pretty easy to find in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, etc. they are becoming increasingly popular. Also some shuls do have women's minyanim and torah readings for simchat torah and special occasions. These are not super common and less widely accepted than megilah readings (which is really widely embraced). However, in my observation, these are more of a grassroots phenomenon not necessarily led by rabbis - I see these people seeking rabbinical council to ensure these minyanim stay within halacha - and certainly many rabbis gladly guide them and are happy to promote and help them - but they do not necessarily lead or initiate them.

That being said there are a lot of people live in practice a very lax (I like the Ortho-flex definition I've seen here, we have something similar in Hebrew too) Orthodox lifestyle, many of them appreciate the OO movement or espouse similar concepts without following what's going on overseas. I think in the future some of these people may follow some OO rulers to a new movement/title-less manner of practice that is more Conservative in hashkafa and practice.

↑ etky ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:50 am

imasoftov wrote:

I don't think there is any formal identification with OO (I don't even know if there is in the US), but there are a number of partnership minyanim in Israel as well as shuls with separate Torah readings for women (a partnership minyan has men and women reading together).

[b]

And within this group (at least several dozen throughout the country, although some do not meet on a weekly basis) there are those inspired by or affiliated with Shira Hadasha that are not fully egalitarian (minyan meshutaf or shitufi) and that claim adherence to halacha. Some define themselves as Orthodox while others merely call themselves 'halachic'.
There are also minyanim that are fullly egalitarian (minyan shivyoni) although they maintain a mehitza and the prayer is the standard Orthodox. Some in this group also purport to be halachic.
From what I've gleaned, most of these minyanim have a lay leadership (not at all unusual in Israel, in general). There is usually a committee of men and women that study halachic issues and decide what the shul's policy will be.
I don't know if any of these minyanim identify themselves as Open Orthodox. It's not a term that's usually applied here.

↑ etky

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:58 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Dr. Jennie Rosenfeld. She is a graduate of the Midreshet Lindenbaum program and her official position in Efrat is "manhiga ruchanit" (spiritual leader).

↑ salt

Wed, Dec 27 2017, 4:39 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

salt wrote:
Is this your view only for different types of Jews, or for all people of all beliefs, religions and walks of life?

yes. why not?

I don't know. I was just trying to think how far you'd take that. I assume you'd say that as long as someoone is not hurting
anyone else, then no derech is wrong. I mean, I imagine you wouldn't say that for a thief - if that derech is good for them, then let them steal.
Or, an even more extreme example, radical muslems.

Now I believe that each individual should be respected, and loved, and let to live his own life with his outlook, doing what he thinks is best
for him, and respecting him as a person, or as a fellow Jew, but if there is a group of people, or a movement, that may, by their beliefs and way of living
endanger spiritually the future of the Jewish nation, by causing assimilation, by intermarriage and/or invalid conversions, or whatever,
then that is already borderline - affecting others.

So this may be a little different. And I don't think it's disrepsectful to think their way is wrong. Again, as long as as individuals and human beings,
you respect them.

You live in Israel - you see and live the different opinions on the political spectrum. Do you think none of them are wrong? I'm not saying
do you not believe everyone should be allowed to express his opinions, but do you really accept no way as wrong?
Giving land to Arabs for peace, not giving land to Arabs for anything, teachers striking, disabled striking, yeshiva students striking,
and they are all right, because it sounds right for them?
It's just seems strange to think it's disrespectful to think that some view is wrong, as long as you repsecfully think it's wrong.

I'm gabbling here. Not really writing in a very organized fashion so excuse me. And this thread has kind of petered
out, so no need to reply.

Princess23 ↓

Sun, Oct 22 2023, 4:48 am

InnerMe wrote:

In another thread, I was reprimanded for unfairly seeing OO as not a stream of Judaism just like MO, Chareidi, Litvish.. etc. This made me wonder if we have different meanings when we say "Open Orthodoxy." I was actually pretty surprised because I had wrongly assumed that this was the consensus in all streams of Orthodox Judaism. Because the way I understand OO- is that they have a very strong emphasis on social justice, social equality, women's rights which is all wonderful and admirable BUT they see halacha as open to change and flexible.

Additionally a poster wrote "don't whine when we attack your Rabbis." That sounds like there are women here who do see OO Rabbis as their Rabbi. So to me it seems that there may be different understandings to OO then what I know. Because generally the women on here do not believe that halacha is flexible and open to change. And do not ascribe to that philosophy.

I'm trying to clarify and understand. Please, no bashing.

Your understanding is exactly correct. But, they get very offended and quick to say something back in return to defend themselves and explain why they call themselves orthodox, when others don’t view them as such.