Your Veiw on Open Orthodoxy

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:03 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

DrMom, we are a "bnei brak" family and we have reservations with Chabad as well. But we consider Lubavitch as part of Orthodoxy. The Moetzes has NOT come out against any other sector except Open Orthodoxy, as SpottedBanana has pointed out.

Any innovations that were possible to be done within halacha have already been done. I think that ANYONE who thinks that Rabbanim have not looked into the Agunah question from every angle possible, and have sweated and lost sleep over this issue, has just not looked into the facts too closely.

So if you see that this stream of Orthodoxy has certain innovations that other streams don't have - you can rest assured that these innovations are completely out of the pale of mainstream Halacha.

Mommyg8, it's not just the agunah issue. I brought that up because it's something all of us are pained over. Unlike, say women in authority: not everyone here feels a need to expand or stretch the borders of acceptability.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:09 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I respect your expertise as a scientist/engineer, but I can assure you that in the halachic process there have been some really great and innovative minds who have worked on many different contemporary problems. I am completely confident that the solutions that they have come up with are the best solutions that there are, within the confines of normative halacha. To be clear, Halachah does not have a similar process to engineering. It's not the same at all.

The Moetzes has never condemned any other branch of Orthodoxy as being "not Orthodox".

PF wrote this story in a different thread, but this is a story that bears repeating:

When R' Zev Gold, the leader of the World Mizrachi Organization, came to Baltimore, he stayed by R' Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman. Someone questioned R' Gold why he stayed with R' Ruderman who was "not Mizrachi". Rabbi Gold answered "Because with R' Ruderman I have differences over one mitzvah. With you, I have differences over dozens of mitzvos." (Rabbi Frand, "In Print", pg. 219).

We have differences of opinion, sometimes strong differences of opinion, but we are all considered Orthodox. When you start tinkering with basics of Judaism, then this is no longer considered part of Orthodoxy.

Thanks. You are welcome to post this in the other thread if you haven't. I knew I wasn't doing the story justice.

↑ princessleah ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:47 am

etky wrote:

Synonymous, no. One is a movement and the other is a practice that some of the proponents of this movement endorse. For example, R' Ysoscher Katz, who is associated with YCT is the author of a teshuva in which he argues that women are halachically allowed to receive aliyot.
Women are called to the Torah in many partnership minyanim throughout Israel. I don't know whether they are officially considered Open Orthodox or something else. I know that some are affiliated with Shirah Hadasha in Jerusalem and some with Mechon Hadar in NY which I believe is considered Open Orthodox. Some are not formally affiliated with any other shul or movement so they are perhaps harder to classify.
BTW I just want to add that I know quite a few of the main actors behind both the more established and the newer partnership/egalitarian minyanim here in Israel and they are all - to a man/woman - learned and serious in their commitment to Halacha. I may not agree with their approach but I have the utmost respect and admiration for them as individuals.

There is such a mish-mash of information on this thread!!! I do not know every single detail of OO but here are the basics.

It was founded by R. Avi Weiss, a musmach of Rav Soloveitchik at YU. He started a shul in Riverdale, HIR. He was on the forefront of activism to release the Jewish refuseniks from Soviet Russia. He protested, was arrested many times because of his protests.

His shul has always been staunchly MO and zionist. After the Russia cause, he focused on MIA's and would make a misheberach for them every week at Shabbat services.

He then founded his own left-wing Rabbinical school, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah (YCT). Many communities prefer these Rabbis, especially small frum communities out of town because of the openness they bring and the connections they build in the surrounding community.

There is also Yeshivat Maharat which grants a "semicha" to women, but they are NOT considered Rabbis. They do advisement, they interact with the kehila in a pastoral counseling function, and as I said elsewhere, read the misheberach in shul sometimes.

HIR itself does not have a partnership minyan nor officially endorses one. They occasionally have a women's tefilah Friday night but it is women only.

As far as torah misinai issues are concerned, someone got in trouble because he referred to the Torah being written by humans, but that was one student and was not representing the views of the movement. I think they do engage in a type of literary exegesis of Torah, as does R. Steinsalz.

p.s. Mechon Hadar is NOT OO, it is an independent yeshiva that does not subscribe to any official movement, but is totally egalitarian and decidedly NOT ORTHODOX- and does not want to be.

mille ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 4:13 pm

princessleah wrote:

So glad I saw this post before I decided to reply. I was raising my eyebrow thinking that all these people commenting really don't know what open orthodoxy is, and are conflating it to be something its not. The partnership minyan thing is particularly interesting to me. I can't imagine a woman leining in front of men at HIR, honestly! I feel like the most "appalling" thing you may see at HIR is a few women wearing a tallit (gasp! shock! burn the witch!). I love Darchei Noam in the upper west side personally, but it's just not what HIR is and not what HIR's purpose and goals align with.

I also, to be quite frank, really don't give a you-know-what about what other, especially very "mainstream right-wing" rabbis have to say about ANY movement of Judaism. They are not my rabbis, so I don't care what they think. If you follow them, that's excellent. I personally don't. I don't get my halachic or spiritual guidance from them. If I am being very honest with myself, I find a lot of practices that other right wing sects do antithetical to Judaism as well, and totally wild "not-my-religion" - but I don't really care, because it's not my practice, not my rabbis. I follow my rabbis, I have a good relationship with Hashem, and I practice a Judaism I feel is within the halachic framework under the guidance of my rabbis.

To say that we've done all of the innovation we will ever do in regards to halacha is just patently false. As shown above, there are solid examples of where halacha has changed over the years. As the human race grows and evolves and technology grows and evolves, rabbis must use old text to create new halachic guidelines. There's nothing in gemara about electricity. It was a man who decided that this falls under the parameters of lighting a fire, or completing a circuit, or whatever. This will continue to happen until the end of time.

It's ridiculous I even have to make this disclaimer, but I don't identify with open orthodoxy at all.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 4:51 pm

princessleah wrote:

I understood that students receive smicha (without quotation marks) and the title Maharat, which entitles them to fill both a pastoral role in the community and to pasken as a halachic decisor. It is up to graduates and the institutions in which they find employment to decide how they will be called. Options can include: Maharat, Rabba (as in Rabba Sara Hurwitz who is the dean of Yeshivat Maharat and who functions alongside Rabbi Weiss at HIR), Rabbanit (the title usually preferred by graduates of the Israeli equivalents of Yeshivat Maharat) or Rabbi.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 4:55 pm

mille wrote:

So the sum total of Open Orthodoxy (if it exists) is HIR but excludes it's satellite institutions, YCT and Yeshivat Maharat?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 7:17 pm

mille wrote:

To say that we've done all of the innovation we will ever do in regards to halacha is just patently false. As shown above, there are solid examples of where halacha has changed over the years. As the human race grows and evolves and technology grows and evolves, rabbis must use old text to create new halachic guidelines. There's nothing in gemara about electricity. It was a man who decided that this falls under the parameters of lighting a fire, or completing a circuit, or whatever. This will continue to happen until the end of time.

It's ridiculous I even have to make this disclaimer, but I don't identify with open orthodoxy at all.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the above. Electricity has already been paskened on, we don't need any innovations about electricity. Anything that is different, and modern, has already been paskened about, as far as I know. Do you want to provide an example of something that needs innovation?

↑ mille

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 8:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Aaaaaand what about 25 years from now when we have new technology? New ways of living life? New societal norms that we have to navigate?

I know plenty of Jewish people love living in their little bubble and pretending that the rest of the world doesn't exist, but it just doesn't feel sustainable. Acknowledging our ever-changing society and finding ways to embrace it within a halachic context will serve us a lot better than immediately rejecting anything post 1830 shtetl.

↑ InnerMe ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:39 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

I voted for the third option - it's not my place to give any movement or person the "Authentic Orthodox Award". I mean many things that other streams of Judaism, which are considered to be within the realm of Orthodoxy are doing, are beyond the pale halachicly - but as long as they consider themselves within the realm I think it's meaningless for me or anyone else to cast them out. The main point is whether they adhere to halacha or not - and I guess on both sides of the spectrum - they profess to halachic adherence - what else can you ask for. As long as you claim you're in - you're in in my book.

With that caveat many things OO are doing do concern me and make me feel uneasy (without giving them marks on the Orthodox scale or comparing them to any other Orthodox movement). For instance, recently, I came across a Maharat graduate, whom I was quite shocked to understand is married to a Conservative rabbi (this is not shocking in itself because being married to someone who is not part of your denomination doesn't necessarily have any bearing on your practice), is a community leader within his Conservative shul (not Conservodox - Conservative), is an interfaith activist in a form no Orthodox rabbi would permit and she still teaches a course in the Maharat program.
I would understand if she joined the program, became a Maharat and then changed her practice later on - but that really doesn't seem the case, especially since the program seems to embrace her current practice by hiring her as a teacher. This does not reflect very well on the program.

I do think some people who espouse Open Orthodox (or whatever you want to call it) views are walking a thin line between Orthodoxy and Conservatism. How does this reflect on the entire movement? I don't know, time will tell. I honestly don't think this is a conversation worth having today. I mean, we can discuss certain practices (many of which listed upthread seem completely legit to me - others not so much) and debate whether they fall within the boundaries of halacha or not - but as a movement it's way too young to see where it's going and if it's going anywhere.

Edited to add that I am Israeli DL I guess RWMO - so you know where I'm coming from

Since this thread is still 'round..

Chanchy, just want to say that I really like your posts, and your general balanced and fair attitude on such things. But mainly that you express yourself in such a kind and non-judgmental way.

I am also wondering whether OO exists in Eretz Yisrael as it does in the US. Because I'm seeing a marked difference in responses from Israeli posters then Imas from chutz la'aretz.

↑ InnerMe

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 10:56 pm

etky wrote:

On the whole I agree and identify with Chanchy's position.
I am also extra hesitant to 'pronounce judgement' because, as an Israeli, I'm not sure that I am familiar with all the nuances of what Open Orthodoxy actually represents and which personalities are officially associated with the movement.
That said, I have read quite extensively on the specific topic of partnership minyanim and thus on that particular issue I do have a more solid opinion.
The halachic conversation that is taking place these days reveals the erudition and respect for the halachic process of both proponents and detractors of partnership minyanim alike. The discourse is very scholarly and often segues to a meta-halachic discussion which I find fascinating. It is here where the real differences between Open Orthodoxy and traditional Modern Orthodoxy come to the forefront. It seems to me that Open Orthodoxy's approach is more willing to employ tools that are available within the halachic system in order to minimize, insofar as possible, the dissonance that often exists between our modern sense of morality and halacha. Traditional Modern Orthodoxy is much more cautious in invoking these tools and in general is more wary of creating change in normative practice both for sociological reasons and because of the obvious dangers to the entire halachic system that such changes would usher in.
ETA - My own stance at the moment is that I can't get behind the idea of partnership minyanim in the format that I see around me, in many communities. There are halachic arguments in favor but they seem too weak and stretched to support something so potentially disruptive, in so many ways.

My compliments to you as well, Etky.

alis_al_kulana ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:09 pm

InnerMe wrote:

In another thread, I was reprimanded for unfairly seeing OO as not a stream of Judaism just like MO, Chareidi, Litvish.. etc. This made me wonder if we have different meanings when we say "Open Orthodoxy." I was actually pretty surprised because I had wrongly assumed that this was the consensus in all streams of Orthodox Judaism. Because the way I understand OO- is that they have a very strong emphasis on social justice, social equality, women's rights which is all wonderful and admirable BUT they see halacha as open to change and flexible.

Additionally a poster wrote "don't whine when we attack your Rabbis." That sounds like there are women here who do see OO Rabbis as their Rabbi. So to me it seems that there may be different understandings to OO then what I know. Because generally the women on here do not believe that halacha is flexible and open to change. And do not ascribe to that philosophy.

I'm trying to clarify and understand. Please, no bashing.

"open orthodoxy" is a cancer in the heart of the Jewish world.
It must be stopped before it destroys large portions of the Jewish world, as reform and conservative in the 1950s led to over 70% assimilation of American Jews.

↑ Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:21 pm

mille wrote:

Is there a problem with the halachic authorities that we have now? Is there a dearth of brains or creativity? Is there something that's missing in our world that has to be remedied? I haven't seen that. I have seen that Rabbanim have been quite nicely equal to the task of paskening on anything new - whatever it may be - as things come to the forefront.

In what way does our world live in a "little bubble"? Where do you see that Rabbanim are rejecting anything that is post 1830 shtetl? And how does Open Orthodoxy claim to rectify this (within mainstream halachic parameters)?

↑ salt ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:14 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Loveshashem, I grew up among ALL kinds of jews, very chassidish cousins to not religious at all and those theatr knew nothing at all.
I never in all of my life ever thought that their path that they chose was wrong, it was different than mine. Personally I know that for ME my derech is correct and for the joe shmoe and the shprintza moyelstein, their drachim are correct for them. It doesnt have to mean that one is wrong or right.
I dont live your way of life, but I dont think its wrong. Its 100% wrong for ME, but not for those who chose it. Do you see the difference?

Is this your view only for different types of Jews, or for all people of all beliefs, religions and walks of life?