Your Veiw on Open Orthodoxy

SpottedBanana ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 11:41 am

PinkFridge wrote:

So saying mazel tov could have been a hava mina?

They did, and then the OU made them stop: https://www.jewishlinknj.com/o.....nions

If you define Open Orthodoxy as anything bearing any resemblance to the CURRENT words of:

1) Rabbi Avi Weiss

2) Rabbi Asher Lopatin

3) Rabbi Ysocher Katz

4) Any female "rabbi" who has been "ordained" by Maharat

5) Rabbi Shmuly Yanklowitz

then it is not legitimate Orthodox Judaism. See Cross-Currents for hundreds of examples.

shabbatiscoming ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 2:46 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I'm not sure what religion it is, but it's not mine.
I've read about it, it's quite fascinating, but no- they are completely 150 percent wrong.

And what if people say that about your religion? It is Judaism, in the orthodox form, just different than the way you practice it. Why does that mean it has to be WRONG? Why not different? Why does any derech that is not yours have to be wrong?

↑ InnerMe ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 3:40 pm

etky wrote:

I seem to recall rejoicing on this site, among imamothers from across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy, after the Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage. Most of the arguments in favor of legalizing gay marriage and against the rejection of gay people from the community that R' Weiss presents in the article were echoed here too, and not exclusively by MO posters.
In the article, R' Weiss underscores the fact that he stands by the biblical prohibition against homosexuality and therefore does not officiate or participate in same s-x marriages. This does not prevent him from advocating kindness and de facto acceptance of individual gay members of the community. It is a delicate balancing act and a difficult position for a leader of a community to uphold.
My hunch though is that he is merely articulating the tacit postion held privately by many Orthodox Jews, across the spectrum of Orthodoxy.

Thanks Etky for pointing out my error. I had taken this link from a different article on OO on which it seemed they were using "legalizing" as in "making it legal in halacha" I did not properly look at the link I posted, which I should have.

I'm not sure if OO believes in making it "legal lahacha." I will go back and delete. I am with you on what you wrote in your post here.

Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 8:27 pm

tichellady wrote:

Of course halakha changes. We have an oral law to allow for that process. People may prefer to say “ halakha does not change, but halakhic approaches may change as reality changes etc” but I think that’s just semantics ( but ok if that’s how you want to think about it)

Areas in which halakha has changed that I can think of on the top of my head : going from being allowed to no longer being allowed to kill lice on shabbos, how we treat people who are mechalel shabbos, takanot, women and Talmud Torah etc

I honestly don't see any of the examples as changes in halacha, perhaps you can clarify what you mean? I would like to understand what you mean when you say that halacha changes, because I haven't seen that to be true.

As for Open Orthodoxy - my understanding is that they feel that halacha is flexible and can change as they wish it to, which is not something that any other stream of Orthodoxy believes. I also understand that there are some in the Open Orthodox camp who do not believe in Torah mishamayim.

If what I have said above is not true, I am ready to be convinced.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:18 pm

InnerMe wrote:

No, Rabbi Weiss does not believe that gay marriage is or can be halachically accepted. YCT officially holds that its graduates may not officiate at a gay marriage.

That’s quite different from supporting legalization of gay marriage from a secular perspective, and from being accepting of gay Jews.

↑ InnerMe ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:24 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Yes. Of course it is. That's why I clarified.

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:24 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Its not what they hold. When Avi Weiss uses “open Orthodoxy,”he means “Modern Orthodoxy.” He means Torah miSinai. And adherence to Halacha.

And as I said, the term is not even used by YCT anymore. http://jewishweek.timesofisrae.....doxy/

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:29 pm

I'm going to be honest - I haven't been following the OO debate that has been taking place within the last few years. I have only heard, from my Rabbanim, that we do not feel that OO is part of mainstream Orthodoxy, for many reasons.

If I have time to research this tomorrow, I will, but for the meantime, I found the following quote in Wikipedia:

"In November 2015, The Conference of European Rabbis stated "The Conference views with great pain the deviations from religious foundations emanating from the movement called 'Open Orthodoxy', and warns that those who act in this spirit, alumni of the aforementioned movement... will not be recognized by us as rabbis, with all that entails." Rabbi Jonathan Guttentag of Manchester, UK, explained that by systematically testing the boundaries of normative Jewish practice, Open Orthodoxy "has pushed the envelope that bit far, and... led to positions which take its proponents outside the Orthodox umbrella."[22]"

I also understand that his ordaining women as Rabbis puts him out of the Orthodox mainstream, as well.

That's just to start.

↑ InnerMe ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:34 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Yes, I've come across this article upon looking into it on Friday. And that they have decided to drop the "Open Orthodox" label, and are now going by Modern Orthodox, in order to bolster their standing within Orthodoxy. But the question is are their practices in line with mainstream modern orthodoxy?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:34 pm

And here is a link to "The Commentator" - which I understand is a MO publication?

http://yucommentator.org/2013/.....witz/

Explaining the OO position, and how it defers, significantly, with MO.

And according to this article, yes, OO Rabbis are implying that Torah is not meshamayim, and that they can take out the parts of Torah that they find morally offensive.

↑ SixOfWands

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:40 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I got as far as OO allows women to leyn in the main sanctuary, with men present. They don’t. Given such a basic lie, I discounted the entire article.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:43 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I got as far as OO allows women to leyn in the main sanctuary, with men present. They don’t. Given such a basic lie, I discounted the entire article.

Why would "The Commentator" include a lie that is easily refuted?

And is everything else they wrote in the article a lie as well?

↑ tichellady ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Why would "The Commentator" include a lie that is easily refuted?

And is everything else they wrote in the article a lie as well?

Well it’s simply a lie. I have no idea why they would include that. I’m not interested in continuing this conversation because it doesn’t seem like it is going anywhere constructive or positive.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:48 pm

tichellady wrote:

No problem, you can leave. I'm still here.

Anyone else want to answer?

↑ crust ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 10:04 pm

InnerMe wrote:

Hmmm..How's that for support?

I thought you were being adventurous. I tried to respond in the same spirit. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.

I was hinting you that uhum.... perhaps this topic is not the best topic on ima. It always ends with hurt posters.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 10:08 pm

crust wrote:

And I'm not understanding how anyone in the orthodox camp can legitimately defend open orthodoxy, when every single Rav that I know have come out against it, and many have said that this movement is not considered Orthodox..

↑ InnerMe ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 10:09 pm

crust wrote:

No sorry's necessary;)
And about hurt posters. Ugh, that cannot be further from my intention.
I guess I thought this was something more pretty agreed upon here. But I was wrong.
Any way to close this thread? Should I message a moderator?

I don't want to leave this open, and have more hurt to go around.

dancingqueen

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 10:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Other rabbis disagree, obviously.

DrMom ↓

Sat, Dec 23 2017, 10:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Perhaps those who defend OO simply know different rabbanim than you do?

I am not 100% familiar with all of OO's tenets, (BTW, now they do not use the OO name so much anymore: http://jewishweek.timesofisrae.....doxy/ ), but I am willing to learn about their ideas. Maybe some of them are legit and creative and useful ways to solve halachic issues.