transgender people

↑ TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:49 am

Quote:

The child is still young, so I'm not sure what was poskened, I will try to find out for you if it's for a reason. If it's just for curiousity, I don't feel right asking the parents.

Wouldn't you know by how the child dresses and what school they go to?

There are many halachos about it, in RamBam, probably shulchan Aruch too. (don't know anything offhand), but for example whether an adreygonus who shaves the beard is chayov on the same lav as a male....

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 11:41 am

happyone wrote:

This is a very unfortunate situation, and not that common. I know a child born with this condition, among other issues and this was the most difficult for the parents to deal with. The child is still young, so I'm not sure what was poskened, I will try to find out for you if it's for a reason. If it's just for curiousity, I don't feel right asking the parents.

OT:
if someone had the option to choose, which gender do you think they would pick?

I don't know how good of an idea it is to pick....I don't know all the Halachaot. At one time the thougth was to choose a gender (normally female as the operation is easier) and raise the child as a girl (also in cases of botched circs.) but there are adjustment problems and some kids feel as if they never have fit in. That may be because the parents are trying to hard or there is an undertone of "something not being right" that the child picks up on but is never addressed.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 11:42 am

happyone wrote:

no happyone, it was just out of curiousity, so dont bother the parents.

I think that they would pick the gender that they feel more comfortable with, even if on the outside it is the opposite one. does that make any sense?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 11:43 am

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

The child is still young, so I'm not sure what was poskened, I will try to find out for you if it's for a reason. If it's just for curiousity, I don't feel right asking the parents.

but tzenarena, that is exactly my point. just because the child dresses one way does not mean that, lets say, the internal s-x organs are the opposite and so the child would not themselves be sure of what s-x they were.

↑ HindaRochel

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 11:53 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

happyone wrote:

Yes taht does to me, but there are halachic issues. And you can't know what they'll feel better about till they have had a chance to explore all sides of the issue so to speak...

If you are wondering what I personally would do if my child were born with this condition?
1. Talk to a Rav
2. No operation (though a bris if that were at all called for Halachiacally)
3. Be very open with my child from the begining and let them know of all the choices they could make, halachiacally of course.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 12:02 pm

Ruchel wrote:

My dh says those with both male and female parts are considered woman. I remember hearing that too.

why would that be? if they have masculine parts in their body, in or out, then how can they be considered one or the other?

mali

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 12:21 pm

A few years ago in Israel, an 11-year-old child's parents had to make the crucial decision for their child - should he be a boy or girl (beforehand it didn't really matter, but as he was reaching puberty, they had to decide which organs to leave and what hormones to give him). The doctors said that as a girl, she'd be able to have children, but the male organs are only external and he'd be sterile. Nevertheless, his parents decided to leave him as a boy because that's how they raised him all along. They said they can't suddenly turn an 11-year-old boy into a girl. It's such a difficult decision. Too bad they had to do it themselves, and they didn't have a Rav to consult with.

Corrected - I wrote fertile instead of sterile and the whole thing didn't make sense. Sorry.

Last edited by mali on Mon, Aug 13 2007, 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

batya_d ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 12:28 pm

mali wrote:

A few years ago in Israel, an 11-year-old child's parents had to make the crucial decision for their child - should he be a boy or girl (beforehand it didn't really matter, but as he was reaching puberty, they had to decide which organs to leave and what hormones to give him). The doctors said that as a girl, she'd be able to have children, but the male organs are only external and he'd be fertile. Nevertheless, his parents decided to leave him as a boy because that's how they raised him all along. They said they can't suddenly turn an 11-year-old boy into a girl. It's such a difficult decision. Too bad they had to do it themselves, and they didn't have a Rav to consult with.

That sounds very unusual, every case I've ever heard of or read about involving androgynous genitalia they assign the child one relations soon after birth-- why would this family wait until puberty when the surgery and/or transitioning would be 100x more traumatic?

All y'all need to watch the discovery channel, that's where I learned everything I know about interesting medical conditions like this Tongue Out

↑ shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 12:34 pm

batya_d wrote:

mali wrote:

A few years ago in Israel, an 11-year-old child's parents had to make the crucial decision for their child - should he be a boy or girl (beforehand it didn't really matter, but as he was reaching puberty, they had to decide which organs to leave and what hormones to give him). The doctors said that as a girl, she'd be able to have children, but the male organs are only external and he'd be fertile. Nevertheless, his parents decided to leave him as a boy because that's how they raised him all along. They said they can't suddenly turn an 11-year-old boy into a girl. It's such a difficult decision. Too bad they had to do it themselves, and they didn't have a Rav to consult with.

but just because the doctors can perform a surgery and give the child one set of genitalia does not mean that the inside or the way the child will feel their whole life will not be messed up still...

↑ batya_d

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:18 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

batya_d wrote:

mali wrote:

A few years ago in Israel, an 11-year-old child's parents had to make the crucial decision for their child - should he be a boy or girl (beforehand it didn't really matter, but as he was reaching puberty, they had to decide which organs to leave and what hormones to give him). The doctors said that as a girl, she'd be able to have children, but the male organs are only external and he'd be fertile. Nevertheless, his parents decided to leave him as a boy because that's how they raised him all along. They said they can't suddenly turn an 11-year-old boy into a girl. It's such a difficult decision. Too bad they had to do it themselves, and they didn't have a Rav to consult with.

but just because the doctors can perform a surgery and give the child one set of genitalia does not mean that the inside or the way the child will feel their whole life will not be messed up still...

absolutely, there's no guarantee that the person will end up ok, but you give a kid a better chance by clearing up the physical aspects earlier rather than later.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:21 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

My dh says those with both male and female parts are considered woman. I remember hearing that too.

why would that be? if they have masculine parts in their body, in or out, then how can they be considered one or the other?

No idea...

↑ Ruchel

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:23 pm

mali wrote:

so now the poor child is sterile? oy Crying

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:06 pm

MrsLeo wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

It depends, and the Rabbi's have dealt with this situation. There are various kinds of "transgender" and I don't know all the details. I believe some are referred to as tumtum, but I could have that all wrong....

A tumtum is a child born without any reproductive parts.
I forgot what the other type is called.

Minor correction:

A tumtum has reproductive organs, but they are covered over with a membrane or skin. There are places where the mishna refers to cases where the skin over a tumtum rips and his/her gender is confirmed.

An androgynous (as the name implies) has both male and female reproductive organs.

Tammy

↑ Lechatchila Ariber

Fri, Aug 17 2007, 10:38 am

Yes thankyou tzena rena and breslov, I was indeed transliterating from the gemora.

technic, I actually was aware of your spelling which is the anglo version, but since it was in the context of someone mentioning tumtum and something else (which is mentioned in gemorah) I was filling in the missing second name.

peach

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 12:59 am

Fortunately, we do not have to wonder and wrack our brains for halachic solutions to this very complex situation, due to the fact that there are maaaaaaany gemorahs, teshuvas, and halachos about all the various aspects of this.

As for deciding on a gender, I would think parents should choose the gender that the child seems to be leaning toward and associates him/herself with more.