transgender people

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Transgender people

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shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 5:41 pm

I was reading an article about transgender ppl and I had a thought: in religious judaism where would a person like that go? if they are mostly woman but have certain male parts, for example, what bracha would they say in the morning, shelo asani easha? or shalo asani kirtzono? or what about where they would go in shul?
talk about even more confusion than they must have already.

HindaRochel ↓

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 5:49 pm

It depends, and the Rabbi's have dealt with this situation. There are various kinds of "transgender" and I don't know all the details. I believe some are referred to as tumtum, but I could have that all wrong....

Mama Bear

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:03 pm

I dont think you can halachically undergo a sexchange operation to begin with, so it's all moot.

chocolate moose

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:45 pm

didn't we discuss this at length? shall I look for the trhead for you?

MrsLeo

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 8:10 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

A tumtum is a child born without any reproductive parts.
I forgot what the other type is called.

Mimisinger

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 8:13 pm

I think Shabbat was meaning, if the person was born with both parts, or some of each. I'm sure it has been discussed and rabbeim have a decision, but it's a really sad thing. My ds had to go to a dr. for something really small, but that same dr. does surgery on children who were born with non-matching parts. Or, missing parts...

Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 8:35 pm

the other one is called andregynus

anuta

Sun, Aug 12 2007, 8:38 pm

Transgender is a wrong term. Transgender is when people are willingly trying to become or resemble the other gender. What you mean is called hermaphrodite (a person born with confusing relations characteristics)

technic

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 7:29 am

EstiS wrote:

the other one is called andregynus

androgynous Very Happy

(I had 2 look up the spelling!!!)

greenfire ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 7:35 am

A+ technic - for your spelling Tongue Out

as far as the brocha - I don't like that brocha anyway ... so who cares

sickness is one thing and being "sick" is another ...

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:16 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I dont think you can halachically undergo a sexchange operation to begin with, so it's all moot.

I am not talking about someone undergoing an operation to "correct" anything. I am talking about the fact that we have ppl in this world that have both or part of male s-x organs and part female s-x organs. what are they considered? in halachic religious jewish terms?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:18 am

anuta wrote:

dont know, thats what they were called in the article and I once saw a program on tv about such ppl and that was what they were calling themselves as well.

↑ HindaRochel ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:20 am

I think it was confusing because fo the placement of this topic; there is nothing contriversial about someone who is born androgenous or with a confused gender identity. That is who they are and certain laws attach.

↑ greenfire ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:22 am

a born identity crisis ... that must be a hard situation ...

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:23 am

HindaRochel wrote:

1. I didnt know where to put it and 2. I thought I might get some controversial answers in regards to halacha, but if not, I could ask for it to be moved. how do I do that?

↑ greenfire

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:27 am

I think you just did Wink

- but no reason really ... I hear you ...

DefyGravity ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:05 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

anuta wrote:

dont know, thats what they were called in the article and I once saw a program on tv about such ppl and that was what they were calling themselves as well.

Transgenders are people that identify with the gender that they were not born as. For example: a person with male genitalia feels like he's really female, no matter what his external looks like.

What you're describing sounds more like hermaphrodites or some chimeras.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:09 am

DefyGravity wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

anuta wrote:

dont know, thats what they were called in the article and I once saw a program on tv about such ppl and that was what they were calling themselves as well.

like I said, I was just repeating what they were called in the article I read.

anyway, does anyone know the answers? about halachically? I mean, I keep on thinking haw sad it would be for someone to have a baby like that. it would make like very sad and very confusing. can you imagine if you were not sure if you were allowed to be counted in a minyan or not?

happyone ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:23 am

This is a very unfortunate situation, and not that common. I know a child born with this condition, among other issues and this was the most difficult for the parents to deal with. The child is still young, so I'm not sure what was poskened, I will try to find out for you if it's for a reason. If it's just for curiousity, I don't feel right asking the parents.

OT:
if someone had the option to choose, which gender do you think they would pick?

TzenaRena ↓

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:43 am

technic wrote:

EstiS wrote:

the other one is called andregynus

androgynous Very Happy

(I had 2 look up the spelling!!!)

EstiS is right, the term is from the Gemara, Rambam etc., and that's the Hebrew way of saying, writing it. Here's to EstiS, whose source is in the original words of our Chachomim Salut

(Not that the English way is wrong. But it's clearly a Greek word, so I'm fine with the Jewish way of saying it.)

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