What school did you go to?

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 11:58 am

Maya wrote:

Check the date of the article. 1999

The article says "third and latest effort." As I wrote, there were three amendments, therefore, four tries. They won the fourth round because they made the language more inclusive.
I have the book but I'm not home now. I'm sure some more googling will get you the real facts.

Okay, first, as far as I can tell, there is only one US Supreme Court decision which ruled against KJ which means that Yoder did not win simply because of religion.

And two, I find no evidence that the NY State court granted KJ the right to have a publicly funded school based on religious freedom.

Below is a 2016 NYT article that leads to a 1995 article (see below) stating that the courts ruled in favor of a "neutral" law for the fourth appeal. However, the 1999 article states otherwise (that it was struck down) and I can't find anything else about it so perhaps you can explain what is going on (I.e. did the NYT link the wrong article, etc) and/or cite sources that support your premise that KJ actually won.

2016 article-- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05.....?_r=0

1995 article as cited in the 2016 article--http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/09/nyregion/court-affirms-public-school-for-hasidim.html

1999 article--http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/12/nyregion/court-decision-upsets-school-district-measure-for-kiryas-joel.html

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:05 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

Freedom of religion does not encompass the right to murder, just as freedom of speech does not give the right to scream fire in a crowded theater.

So you support the right of ISIS schools to teach children that infidels deserve to die, as long the schools don't actually murder anyone.

↑ Maya ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

You're right, it wasn't approved by the court, but that's just because it wasn't brought before them.

In a nutshell, the state passed the laws that allowed KJ to get funding, but the state school board sued that they were unconstitutional. After the courts struck it down, Pataki amended the bill to include a larger group of people, and it once again passed into law. This time, the school board declined to sue again so the courts did not get involved. So while the passage of the bill remains controversial, they are operating under fully legal terms in the state.

amother

↑ Mint

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:40 pm

Maya wrote:

Then you can say KJ "won" because of "religion" because of a corrupt NY govt official but they did not actually win for religious reasons. Certainly not at the US Supreme Court level (which is the highest level court in America so their rulings becomes law of the land and is where Yoder won their case) and def not in the NY Courts. They only got what they wanted because a NY govt official passed a "neutral" law presumably in accordance to the US Supreme Court/Constitutional guidelines, not because of religion.

What is the name of the bill that Pataki passed for KJ? Can you post a link to it? Thanks

↑ Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:00 pm

amother wrote:

I must have missed the part of this conversation where it was claimed that KJ won on basis of religion, and I am not familiar with the Yoder case.

I was simply trying to clarify your post which seemed to state that KJ's school district was fraudulent, illegal, and a result of corruption.

Maybe I misunderstood this whole thing.

↑ debsey

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:48 pm

amother wrote:

So you support the right of ISIS schools to teach children that infidels deserve to die, as long the schools don't actually murder anyone.

it's easy to legislate between obviously bad and obviously good - here r the bad guys, throw them in jail, here r the good guys, let's give them a medal. It's when you have to choose between good and good that we have a problem. Freedom of speech is good. It's the foundation of democracy! Freedom of religion is good - it's the reason this country was founded, and diversity and tolerance are our strength. It's when these two values collide that we have a problem. That's why we have courts, to legislate this balance.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 6:51 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Imamother is not the place. Therapy is. It's not fair that almost every post gets hijacked because of that. I think we all heard about those issues countless times. Time to move on.

There are many of us who would like to see changes in the education (of both boys and girls) but we have been silenced so it's nice to see someone speak up about it. Would you prefer a different approach, say kind of what Yaffed is doing I.e. going to the media, placing ads on huge billboards in the city, going to the govt, etc? Would that be better than bringing awareness about it on imamother?

amother

↑ Cerise ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 6:58 pm

amother wrote:

Well that may be a more constructive approach.

↑ flowerpower ↓

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 7:29 pm

How is hikjacking almost every post and turning it into something cynical once again constructive? You think the ladies from Europe, Israel, Buffalo, Philly.... And whoever else reading these posts will all get together and say "let's change the system"? How stupid is this approach!!!! Find a better technique. Go to the educaters. Go to the ones dealing with the schools. Not this way. Shame!!!

amother

↑ Cerise

Sat, Jul 30 2016, 9:32 pm

flowerpower wrote:

I meant that billboards will be more constructive than kvetching here.
I agree with you flowerpower.
And ya, these hugs are so freaking annoying.

↑ suremom

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:11 am

amother wrote:

Why should anyone be resentful of their education?

No wonder so many Satmar girls are going off the derech.

in regards to these 2 comments, being resentful to your education is not exclusive to satmar. read thru the entire thread and you will find posters unhappy with their educations from all types of schools. AND, satmar otd girls are not more common than in any other school.
p.s. about learning chumash, because other chassidus do learn doesnt mean that satmar must too. its against the divrei yoels shittah.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 10:25 am

suremom wrote:

Being resentful about your education because your school didn't offer organic chemistry or astrophysics is very different than being resentful because your school didn't allow you to graduate with an accredited and/or regents high school diploma. Satmar is sending the girls a message that they (the girls) are worse than felons who, as someone mentioned, get their GED in prison. The Satmar girls didn't commit any crimes, don't have unwed teen pregnancies, aren't drinking, doing drugs, and/or involved in gangs, aren't mentally or physically incapable of learning, etc that would prevent them from graduating with a high school diploma so why are they being put in the same category as those who do have the above mentioned issues? And if that's the message they get, that they are no good, then it's a self fulfilling prophecy that leads them astray from yiddishkeit. So while the satmar rebbe had his beliefs on how to educate girls, it may have worked in Der alte heim but it's not useful in America in 2016 when girls are exposed to other things they would not have been exposed to in Europe. And we all know that things can and do change, even in Satmar, so its time to change the girls education (secular and Jewish) as well.

penguin

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 3:07 pm

I think it would be nice if a mod could split this thread into two
or three
e.g.
1. What school did you go to (and are you typical or atypical)?
2. Would you send your children to the school you attended? What did/didn't you like about it?
3. Bashing of various schools (if you have read the thread carefully, it wasn't only Satmar, and there's some serious loshon hora regarding specific staff which could stand some cleaning up IMHO.)

↑ JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 5:24 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Someone brought up the fact that Satmar only has 3 hours of secular educaiton and not 6-7. Ummmm,,, every single dingle bingle frum girls school has the same schedule. Everyone has 3-4 hours of limudei kodesh and 3-4 hours of limudei chol. That's why it's a JEWISH school. There are only so many hours in the day. Public school teaches limudei chol only, hence they have 7 hours. Do you really want our girls to sit in school til 10 pm? Because no Jewish school will cut on their hours of limudei kodesh. They're not a Jewish school anymore if their emphasis is chol and not kodesh.

I went to a BY-type school. We had 3.5 hours (in addition to davening) devoted to limudei kodesh and 4.5 hours devoted to secular. (These 4.5 hours included English, foreign language, science, history, and math.)