What school did you go to?

Mama Bear ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

I went to Satmar BP. We had 3 classes 9-B, 9-R, 9-S which is BRS and stands for Bais Ruchel Satmar. We stayed in our assigned rooms and the teachers came to us to teach whatever topic they taught. There was no such thing as choosing between classes, we all took the same subjects regardless of interests, needs, competency, etc. There were no electives, gym classes, science lab (only learned bio anyway, no chemistry), trig, calc, language, philosophy, music, art, etc. There were also no AP classes, regents, honor classes, etc. We never had to worry about our GPA because it didn't exist. We had about 3 hours of English classes per day (from 1:15-4:15 pm).

We had Yiddish classes in the morning which worked the same way as the english classes listed above. We learned several subjects in Yiddish only but did not learn any Chumash, Rashi, etc. One day a week we were forced to take sewing classes for the entire morning (around 9ish-12ish) even if we absolutely hated sewing and had no interest in following ready made patterns--we were not allowed to design our own clothing we all just had to follow the same exact pattern). We were in the same classes during Yiddish and English so we were def not split up by level.
I spent my years in high school with the same group of girls every year with all of us taking the same classes even if some of us would have benefited from higher forms of learning. We don't graduate with a regents diploma or an accredited diploma so I had to get my GED to go to college. I don't know how I or anyone else survived it but I would never send my kids there nor do I understand why anyone still sends their kids to this school.

I graduated from the Williamsburg equivalent of this school and I do not feel one iota that I missed out on anything. If anything, I don't even use in practical real life ANYTHING I learned in all my 12 years of schooling... unless you count Spelling / Vocabulary... I don't see what the big deal is and how it's impossible to "survive" going to such a "terrible" school... sheesh... all of my friends, siblings and such are perfectly fine after attending Satmar and are not lacking in life due to attending Satmar.

Perhaps you had different aspirations/ambitions that a chasidishe school could not fulfill. That is your personal issue. For the regular Satmar girls out there, there's absolutely nothing wrong with attending such a school.

↑ Maya ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 9:02 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I actually agree.
There are a LOT of reasons why I would never send my kids there even if I was Chassidish, but the secular education is not one of them.

suremom ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 9:09 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

we all get where we want to get. whoever wants to build a career for themselves, earn a degree, can do so easily. SAHM? just as easily done with that tuition (usually). gym, swimming, individual interests could (and should) be cultivated/done at home.
and btw, you'd be surprised how much algebra came to use to me Wink

↑ sequoia ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 9:12 pm

Not every Satmar woman wants to be a full-time homemaker, and it's repulsive to decide this in advance for a whole group of people, essentially leaving them no choice. I'm surprised you don't see that, MB. Use your imagination for a second. What if *you* wanted higher education and a career? Would you have defended your school then?

But even if one doesn't "use" the things one learned in everyday life, it's still good to have read Shakespeare, Dickens, and Fitzgerald; learned about the double helix, the Napoleonic Wars, and the categorical imperative; and looked at paintings by Monet, Goya, and Cézanne. Because as Terence said, "I am human, and nothing human is alien to me."

↑ Maya ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 9:14 pm

sequoia wrote:

The secular education that Satmar girls receive is not inadequate, and they most certainly can pursue a higher education after graduating high school, if they choose to.

But we've been over this a thousand times here. Smile

↑ suremom ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 10:43 pm

Maya wrote:

That depends on if you're just focusing on wanting a career vs. wanting a broad education for general intelligence. I'm focusing on the former since that's what the original post mentioned, but I totally agree that they are inadequate in the latter. I'm still spending time catching up on that, and I'm out of school for twelve years.

you are not spending time on 'catching up' on those 12 years of secular education. you are pursuing specific topics that interests you (it could be a very wide range) at this point I believe you are way ahead than your average hs graduate on those topics. do you try to educate yourself in chemistry or specific eras in history? you choose history, I choose science (I.e.). I have absolutely zero interest in looked at paintings by Monet, Goya, and Cézanne, while different mathematics fascinate me. no matter what education you had those 12 years, most people (hopefully) end up following their hearts and pursuing their own interests.

↑ debsey ↓

Tue, Jul 26 2016, 10:49 pm

sequoia wrote:

We may have vastly different conceptions of what "adequate" is. For me, "adequate" is AP/IB classes.

When one knows little, one may think one knows a lot. An educated person is painfully aware of his own ignorance.

If you are a lifelong learner, and you're passionate about education, you can pursue it. I went to BYBP, and then an extremely prestigious university and graduate school. I was so intimidated at first, thinking that I have an "inadequate" education. You know what? I had good study habits and a good work ethic, and the ability to read English fluently. I made up the difference on my own.

(At the risk of giving away my identity, because I was the weird girl who did this.) In high school, I was already reading the classics (I found some list of 100 classic books that everyone should read - everything from Austen to Freud to Tolstoy to Voltaire) and I read my way grimly through that list. Some things I thoroughly enjoyed (Anna Karenina, Pride and Prejudice, and Atlas Shrugged come to mind) and some I couldn't make heads or tales of (I found Catcher in the Rye particularly mystifying when I was 16, as I recall) some were weird (Brave New World comes to mind) and some were really, really boring. But I wanted to learn, and school certainly wasn't going to teach me everything I wanted to know.

By the end of my Freshman year in college, I knew as much as any of my classmates. OK, so I didn't take APs. It didn't really matter. I do think that the work ethic I learned in Bais Yaakov helped me. The deficiencies in background - I made up myself. It can be done. It's easier from a Bais Yaakov background than from some Chassidish schools, but more and more Chassidim are pursuing higher education. A work ethic and a desire to learn are more important than a priori background.

And yes, sequoia - a little learning is a dangerous thing - but everyone always has the option of drinking yet more deeply of the Pierian Spring.

mo5

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 6:23 am

sequoia wrote:

Some of us might be more interested in furthering our general Jewish knowledge. Which some Jewish schools do really well and other not so much.
Not sure how Shakespeare or dickens have enhanced my life or understanding of it.
I wish my higher education in general Torah scholarship was greater. As for specific fields of interest, like others said, that is quite easy to do if you're motivated.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 10:10 am

debsey wrote:

(At the risk of giving away my identity, because I was the weird girl who did this.) In high school, I was already reading the classics (I found some list of 100 classic books that everyone should read - everything from Austen to Freud to Tolstoy to Voltaire) and I read my way grimly through that list. Some things I thoroughly enjoyed (Anna Karenina, Pride and Prejudice, and Atlas Shrugged come to mind) and some I couldn't make heads or tales of (I found Catcher in the Rye particularly mystifying when I was 16, as I recall) some were weird (Brave New World comes to mind) and some were really, really boring. But I wanted to learn, and school certainly wasn't going to teach me everything I wanted to know.

In the high school I went to, reading classics was not so wierd. I guess I went to a slightly more diverse BY, where there were teachers who really valued secular education. In fact, if you were in the college-English class, as I was, you read Greek and Roman literature and went on to more modern works of a classic nature. We definitely were given the foundation to explore these interests if we wanted to.

BTW my mother A"H went to BYBP high school and then majored in English in her college years. I know the climate was a bit different then - but you should see her yearbooks, the girls seem to have been pretty well-read back then. My kids were amazed!

I also appreciate the very well-rounded Hebrew education my high school offered. Considered one of the best in BY's in the US, actually. I can't imagine going to a school that would deny that to me, and substitute yiddish for actual Hebrew studies. I'm not saying this to put down differences between my upbringing and a more Chassidish upbringing, but just to point out to Mamabear that some of us really did enjoy and appreciate what we got. Also, I may be confusing you with someone else, but I thought you once posted that you did feel short in this area. For myself, I appreciate being able to open a Chumash - which is part of my own heritage just as much as it is my husband's - and being able to understand a Pasuk along with the commentaries.

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:25 am

debsey wrote:

If there was something dangerous about getting a regents or accredited diploma then none of the chasidishe girls schools would allow it but that is not the case. Most chasidishe girls schools allow the girls to learn Chumash and Rashi which Satmar doesn't allow. Most Chasidishe girls schools also allow the girls to take regents and graduate with a real high school diploma which Satmar does not allow. Most Chasidishe girls get a very similar education to BY girls so its not comparable to compare a Satmar education to a Bais Yakov education.

I wish there was a way for me to help you understand what it means to go to school for 12 years and not graduate high school with a real diploma. It is not whether someone had good work ethics, or if they were passionate, or a lifelong learner, or if they had ability to read secular books at home, etc. All those things are fine and probably come in handy in college but the bottom line is that girls have the right to get a legitimate education in high school, at least enough to graduate high school with a regents and/or accredited high school diploma even if they have no interest in going to college or furthering their education/knowledge etc. That should have been the basic education for all students with additional advanced/honors classes for girls who needed more than that but neither one of these were available in Satmar and that's abusive.

I can understand the Satmar graduates who defend it because they don't know better (it's a classic case of stockholm syndrome where the victim will defend their abuser). But for a Bais Yakov girl to defend it when she has no idea what she is even defending is just unacceptable. Its like defending abusive parents without having a clue what abuse means or how it effects the child being abused. Just stop.

↑ debsey ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:37 am

amother wrote:

I worked in a prison once. There were functionally illiterate people with really low IQs getting GEDs. There were literally people who were struggling to read "The cat sat on a hat" were taking GED classes, working at it, and eventually passing with GEDs. It can be done. Not easily, but being literate in English (and having employed a Satmar grad, I know that girls graduate quite able to read, write, and do math) is already a huge step towards getting a GED. Once you have a GED, you're like anyone else entering college, if that's a step you want to take.

You realize that when you say that MamaBear's recounting of her experience in Satmar is like "stockholm syndrome," you are basically dismissing her right to characterize her experience. Basically, you are smarter than her about her life. Interesting...... Your understanding of your experience does not give you the right to dismiss anyone else's experience. You experienced something, that's simply your experience of it, not "THE TRUTH." Your experience also doesn't invalidate mine, or my ability to reflect on my path, or my life. I was not reflecting on your experience, given that you are anonymous, I really can't, right?

And next time - use your SN if you're going to attack. I use mine.

↑ debsey ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:42 am

Chayalle wrote:

In BYBP HS, in the early 90s, reading the classics was super weird. Maybe ONE teacher in the HS (Mrs. S.) valued secular education. College was treif, treif, treif!

But yes, I do agree with you about being able to open a meforash and read it, being able to read a sefer in the original Hebrew - that was a valuable part of my educational experience, and I'm glad I have it and I retained it. I wish I learned more Yiddish though. Would have been helpful now, doing HW with my boys.

I still maintain - it's not an education I want for my kids. I value the individual attention they get in their small schools.

amother

↑ Mint ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:42 am

debsey wrote:

Ah, so Satmar = Prison. Thank you. That is all.

↑ debsey ↓

Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:43 am

Chayalle wrote: