Tznius/ Negiah- Older Siblings

Newsie

Tue, Mar 06 2007, 7:06 am

What have you all done in terms of your older children and touching/ clothing. Do you require older daughters to always be dressed 100% tzanua in front of brothers who are "of age?" Do you allow casual negiyah amongst older siblings of the opposite relations? What about hugging and kissing- for greeting each other?

hadasa

Tue, Mar 06 2007, 7:40 am

I require my ten-year-old daughter to be Tzniusdikly dressed with her brothers. With my three-year-old I'm not so strict yet with her brothers, although I am careful with her when there are other men in the house.

As far as touching goes, I think I'll leave it up to them. I have one older brother who wouldn't let me touch him or sing before him after my Bas Mitzvah, and another who didn't care.

If anyone has clear Halachic sources on this issue, I'd like to hear!

amother ↓

Tue, Mar 06 2007, 9:26 am

I have no children yet, but growing up (and I hope to do the same) we were allowed to walk around in pjs around our brother. once my sisters and I started to develop, I know myself, I started to wear something more on top.

as for touching siblings, I always did and I would find it quite sad if IYH my children would not touch their siblings.

momofgold

Mon, May 14 2007, 8:00 am

I know this is not very known, but there are halachos in the relm of tznius that apply between a brother and a sister. Although as parents we would love to see our children, boys and girls alike, very close with one another, these halachos are very important that they are kept so that nothing undesirable happens.
One halacha is that brother and sister, I believe it is from bar/bas mitzva-although some start earlier, can not touch affectionatly. Which means hugging, kissing, caressing and anything else that falls under that catagory.
For some this might be hard, but aside for the fact that it is a halacha, I think it is a good safeguard that are children don't do anything further with each other.
For those that want sources, it is in the kitzur and it is also mentioned in Halichos Bas Yisroel.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:10 am

I also dont havea ny children yet but I grew up where we walked around in pjs in the house, but I know that when I got a bit older I felt more comfortable with at least a bra under the pjs but still wearing pjs.

as far as touching, I told my husband that if I can never give my father,grandfather or brother a hug again, that was not going to be a good thing and he was totally fine with that. he actually looked at me funny when I even mentioned such a thing.

gryp ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:23 am

Father and grandfather is completely different than a brother.

I don't understand people who think that brothers and sisters can't be close if they can't touch.

What bugs me the most is when a bochur does not want to be touched and his sister, aunt, or other female relative force it on him, tease him about it, and completely embarrass him in public. I think people should keep their hands to themselves.

greenfire ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:24 am

these restrictions put thoughts into peoples minds that would otherwise not be there - I find it to be extremely unhealthy - who would think of touching their brother or sister in a _____ manner - so why would you want to bring up sick thoughts

shalhevet

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:25 am

As far as being dressed properly I think it applies once the boy is 9 and the girl is 11. Some rabbonim have leniencies in general in the house - eg our rav says a woman/ girl doesn't have to wear socks in the house.

For negia it isn't the same halacha for brothers as for other men. I think it also applies only when both are over bar/bas mitzva. The gemorra says it is foolishness or something for a brother to touch his adult sister. But it is not totally assur.

Negia with a father/ grandfather is totally okay. A daughter should be dressed tzniusly in front of her father/ grandfather from the age of 11.

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:27 am

Correcting myself:

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:

Quote:

Family members are not allowed to hug and kiss each other even though there is no pleasure from it. Except for a father and daughter, a mother and her son.

Rambam:

Quote:

Further down in the chapter (Hilchos Issurei Biah 21), in halacha 6, Rambam refers to "non-affectionate touching": I.e., hugging or kissing family members, to whom there is no attraction and adds that this also forbidden, and is "an act of foolish people."

Last edited by gryp on Mon, May 14 2007, 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ amother ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:31 am

GR wrote:

greenfire, I think it is the Rambam who says that it is not Assur for family members of the opposite gender to touch each other affectionately, but those who do it are fools.

why are those ppl fools? my whole life we gave and got affectionate hugs from my father............................................................and that was all it was, an effectionate hug from aba.

TzenaRena ↓

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:35 am

greenfire wrote:

Who says any "sick thoughts" are the reason the halacha forbids it? Simply, the same din that applies to other people, apply to a sibling. At least to some extent, even if what shalhevet writes is the case.

↑ TzenaRena

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:39 am

Quote:

why are those ppl fools?

first of all, the father is not "family member", a father is a father.

Why are they fools? A fool is not an unintelligent person. It is someone who is ruled by his emotions, who allows his emotion to override his intellect, consequently making wrong choices.

↑ greenfire

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:48 am

fathers molest their daughters too - unfortunately; however, what I am saying is I'd like to think that one shouldn't corrupt the minds of innocent youth with all these restrictions that are overboard - not halacha

in normal circumstances and I hope most of us have that - a fathers/brothers hug and affection can allow girls to grow up healthy emotionally - when deprived of same they tend to look for male acceptance sometimes leading themselves astray

↑ gryp

Mon, May 14 2007, 9:51 am

Quote:

Who says any "sick thoughts" are the reason the halacha forbids it?

Tzena, the Kitzur says that the reason family member are not allowed to hug or kiss each other is: "She'ain Kraivim L'Ervah Klal."

Seraph

Mon, May 14 2007, 12:17 pm

I don't walk around untznius in front of my father or brothers.
Then again, probably until 12 I'd let my daughters wear pants around their brothers and around my husband.

Negiya... I don't know yet what I'll do about that. One of my brothers I haven't touched affectionately in ages- he's not that type, and I'm not close to him. But now I have a 9 y o brother and I love him dearly and give him hugs often... I don't know if I'll be stopping any time in the near future. Maybe I should ask a rav what is permissible...

As far as singing, I don't see any reason to not allow men and women of the same family to sing together. I'd let daughters sing with my sons and husband, as long as there was no one else (non family males) around.

↑ amother

Mon, May 14 2007, 12:30 pm

With my brothers, when they were younger, I'd hug and kush them and be very physically affectionate with them... then when they got to a certain age and went away to yeshiva, I just didn't see them as often... we talked... but hugs became less and less--- and then they got to a certain age with a hat and heard and suit and all that and they were totally bochurim! we pretty much stopped touching-- though we laugh and joke and are still close. thinking about it, maybe I'd touch their shoulders if I had to or like to brush something off--- not for sure I wouldn't hug and "touch" them (and by the way I would NEVER brush something off any other man's shoulder, inc. dh in public)... so it's a little different with the bros, but not much.