My teens are abusing me with husband's consent

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 3:27 pm

I'm amother#1, OP and I see some other posters feel the same way, for clarity's sake, I am not the amother who did the all Caps posts, but I do agree with you about the father not disciplinarian thing.

My husband is disciplinarian when he feels like it, when he holds from it. his discipline consists of being very firm, and they can't get past him when he does that, but he doesn't dole out punishments, (I'm also inconsistent, being unorganized. I used to have a motivational chart with stars, my daughter, then six or seven found the stars and posted them herself, there went my plan along with the raided packet of stars and chart.)

When my husband doesn't agree with me about limits or discipline, as effective as he can be and as much as I need him to, he will not back me up, and even joins them against me, as someone else posted happens in these cases. It's at those times that I feel so overwhelmed and hurt and literally want to run out or hide in bed, like amother #2 .

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 3:47 pm

OP#1 - I think in those situations the solution is really to talk to your dh WITHOUT the kids around, and agree together on basic rules and limits, so you can present a united front to the children.

If dh and I don't agree when something comes up, we've got our little code language (say "help me with the garbage", or something), and we'll deal with it privately.

However, I don't think that you can realistically expect him to automatically back you up if he never agreed with your rule in the first place.
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About my mom's "period" comments: yes, it annoyed us! [Variations included "Are you cranky because you didn't sleep enough last night?] However, it sometimes works - esp. when I'd open my mouth to protest and suddenly realize that I probably did have PMS. I also admit to using a similar line about sleep with dh when we first got married and he was doing his medical residency, because I knew that there was no purpose in arguing about anything if he was just cranky because he'd worked for 36 hours straight.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 8:44 pm

Quote:

think it would be helpful to be much more specific about exactly what is going on - what sort of "abuse", what you mean by "mussar", and maybe give a sample dialogue that will typically take place. Otherwise, the OP is somewhat vague and each of us may just be projecting our experiences onto yours.

OK, just one little sample, daughter is telling me that I want her to get off the computer only because I want it for myself (as though I have no right to that). She is angry that I am not helping her study for her math quiz, although I have just tried to calmly put my arm around her shoulder and give her a choice of studying later ( I am going to be busy now) or waking up early am and studying before school. I tell her that a little bird told me that she wasn't paying attention during class and that's why she feels so utterly clueless in this subject.

I then try to proceed with my task at hand. She is crying, and complaining. Then she says that it's all about my EGO! That I'm not like her friend's mothers who are NORMAL and give their children a normal home and bake for them, and study with them. Crying

I try the respect thing, and tell her that she must speak to me respectfully. She claims that she is! That she is trying to talk to me! She is crying, screaming at me, and telling me that I'm not a normal mother. Telling me that all other mothers are better. and telling me that I have a big EGO because I'm asking her to speak respectfully! Exploding anger

healthymama

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 10:27 pm

Quote:

Okay, thanks for the sample. I think JRK is correct.

You need to use different language and change the conversation entirely. In that example, I would have said, " This is the way you ask politely. Say : Hi mom, is there a good time for you to help me with studying for my test, please ? Since you didn't ask that way, I can't help you now. You can go calm down in your room and try again in thirty minutes." If she goes on about egos, or your are not normal, or garbage about not baking cookies for her, do the broken record thing (repeat what you said about the right way to ask) or just lock yourself in the bathroom/bedroom.

Important points : you can expect it to get worse before it gets better because they will be a little freaked out that they are pushing all the usual buttons and getting an unusual response. Also, be as calm as possible and avoid saying the little birdie thing or anything negative about why it is her fault. A police officer was a very good example. As much as you scream and cry at a cop about an unfair speeding ticket, he will just be calm and empathetic and tell you to drive safer next time. The same way, you need to be very calm and relaxed and consistent about your expectations for how they talk to you.

About counseling : they will teach you this stuff in counseling, but you could buy a few books and it would be cheaper.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 11:41 pm

amother wrote:

Last, dont hide from reality. Cuz it'll hit you right back. Deal with it. It's your life. It's your nisayon, may Hashem help you in your journey. Professional help is always recommended.

I feel bad for you. You're rightfully so angry, you need serious counseling to get over your blatant pain and anger. You are bound to use some of your pent up anger on your own kids, husband, and acquaintances.

May Hashem bless you and make you cognizant of your potential to abuse those around you, due to this dormant anger and resentment, and may you have the wisdom and clarity to seek help for yourself before this occurs and is too late.

Don't be in denial, don't ruin your life. Your anger is very real and seriously potentially very harmful to your physical and emotional health. Do yourself and everyone around you a favor and seek help. May Hashem help you and all your loved ones to heal, and may you all see the Nachas you deserve.

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Thu, Jan 18 2007, 10:42 am

Thanks for the example. I basically agree with healthymama.

Remember that teenagers get emotional and worked up over pressure. That's how they're wired. Our job, as loving parents and authority figures, is to show them a model of calmness, maturity, and teach them how to deal with life's pressures.

To be perfectly honest, if you focus on and react to the personal attacks, you'll just fuel them. As well, I can see the "little birdie" comment being completely counterproductive, and even insensitive. "Told ya so" responses don't encourage teens to open up to you - and having your teens feel that they can go to you with their concerns and receive support is so important, today more than ever.

I'll give a sample of a response to your example:

DD: "Mom! Get off the computer now! You're so selfish, you're always on it, why can't you forget about that and help me with my math quiz?"

Mom: [Turning away from the computer, making eye contact with dd, and using a calm voice] You sound really upset. Are you nervous about the math quiz?

DD: "The quiz is tomorrow and there's so much to study! Come on, already! Get up and help me!"

Mom: "If you get your books and calm down, I can help you for the next 45 min. I just need you to take a deep breath, say "can you please help me", and speak quietly if you have any questions."

Dd: Ok. Can you please help me?

Mom: Of course. Let's go.

[Help with math quiz, using calm voices. Dd calms down.]

Mom: I'm glad you're calmer and seem to understand the math. Now, I want to talk about what happened earlier. You can ask me for help if you need it, but you need to do so calmly and respectfully. Understand?

Dd: Yes, mom.

Mom: Can you say, "Mom, can you please help me study for my big math quiz tomorrow?" Let me hear it.

Dd" "Mom, can you please help me study for my big math quiz tomorrow?"

Mom: Great! See how easy that is? Now, what other stuff is coming up at school?

Dd: Well, there's Chumash test on Thursday, and a HUGE science project due in 10 days!! This is ridiculous - I'll never be able to do it all!

Mom: Ok, let's look at the calendar. I can give you a hand with the Chumash test between 7 and 8 tomorrow. For the science project, let's make a schedule now of what needs to be done.

In this sample, you don't get into an argument, and you aren't taking anything personally. Your dd calms down, because you are calm, you are taking her concerns seriously, and you are helping to deal with her points of stress. She is getting the message that she needs to speak nicely and respect you in a way that she's able to actually "hear" the message. As you've learned, yelling, "Don't talk to me like that! I'm your mother and deserve respect!" in the heat of the moment is like talking to a wall. If you follow the sample, though, she'll be able to calm down a bit at first since she'll see that she has your attention and is getting help, and she'll be more receptive to hearing about respect after you help her, since she'll be all calm, and maybe appreciate that you did help her. It's a better "teaching moment". You're also helping her to plan ahead and start to take responsibility for her own work.

Sample of conversation the next day:

DD: "Mom! Get off the phone - I need so much help with the Chumash test. Why don't you ever stop yakking and help me?"

Mom: "Remember, you need to say, Mom, can you please help me"

Dd: "Fine! Mom, can you please help me with the Chumash test!"

Mom: Ok, I've got on the calendar that I'm helping you from 7 until 8 tonight. You can start studying now, and here are some post-its so you can mark down any spots where you have questions and need some extra help from me.

Most importantly, the relationship is set in a different direction. You don't want to respond to insults by striking back. That doesn't fix the relationship. You want to guide them into more respectful behavior, show that you really listen to their concerns and want to help them, and by doing so show that you love them and are concerned about them.

Further reading:

"Kids Are Worth It!" by Barbara Colorosso
"How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk", by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
"Raising Roses Among the Thorns", by Rabbi Noach Orlowek
"To Kindle a Soul", by Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jan 18 2007, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

Last, dont hide from reality. Cuz it'll hit you right back. Deal with it. It's your life. It's your nisayon, may Hashem help you in your journey. Professional help is always recommended.

I am addressing the daughter who is angry at her mother.

shanie5

Sun, Jan 21 2007, 11:08 pm

for anybody else following this thread, jrkmommy's ideas are great.

but if you have young ones, start now!!! when my kids learn to talk, they learn to say "please" when asking for anything. when a bit older, it must be in a full sentence. for instance:
"I want a drink" (I just look at them) "please" they say. I tell them "full sentence", and they respond with "can I please have a drink".
my 5 yr old knows this.
my teens will occassionally speak disrespectfully, and all I say is "try that again" and they usually repeat what they wanted to say w/ respect.

and they have the right to request the same from me-respectfully.

the earlier you start, the better they learn - and learn they will.

I have a cousin whose kids are "I want", "gimme" etc....
with me, (even w/ their mom in the room) its "please can I..." cuz I have let them know what is acceptable to me and what is not.

↑ JRKmommy

Mon, Jan 22 2007, 2:15 pm

Obviously, my "script" was just an example to get started and demonstrate how some of the more general points may apply. The books I mentioned can give more advice.

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that these general points would help:

1. Staying calm, making direct eye contact with the child and giving full attention during a conversation.

2. Keeping the focus on the child, and not feeling the need to respond to personal criticism.

3. Calmly stating that you need the child to speak calmly and respectfully, and guiding them into doing that.

4. Insisting on respectful communication, but at the same time, showing that you will listen to your child and any concerns that they may have.

5. Showing that rude communication will accomplish nothing, by refusing to listen and respond until they can be more respectful.

Everyone is different, of course, but I've often had to deal with loud and rude folks - related or not - and find this is often really effective.

OP - let me know how this goes!