My teens are abusing me with husband's consent

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Jan 16 2007, 10:47 pm

(Preface: I'm sorry to enter the fray as another "amother" -- especially when there are so many anonymous possts here to begin with -- but I'm not about to post this under my handle. Anyway, just so there is no confusion, I'm a new "amother" to this thread. If you want to comment/critique on what I write, please refer to me as "Amother***", to avoid confusion. I hate threads with amother confusion!)

I grew up in a home very similar to that which the original poster describes. My father was horribly abusive to my mother, my siblings and me. Nobody ever said anything about it to anyone outside the home, because the abuse was entirely emotional/psychological, and we thought that "abuse" could only involve flying fists, and to the best of my knowledge, my father never hit any of us. But his abusive actions were rampant, and very, very real.

While my father's abuse spread to the entire family, he allowed, and in some cases even encouraged, my siblings and I speaking/acting abusively towards our mother.

The consequence of all of this, in terms of our upbringing, is that my siblings and I never learned what a normal, healthy familial relationship is supposed to look like. At various stages in our dating, most of us wound up in abusive relationships -- it's what we knew, it's what was normal, and while being abused hurt, it was in our comfort zone. Abuse was the only way we knew how to live our lives. Thank God, we all ended the relationships, and all but one of us are now happily married to wonderful, loving spouses, complete with warm and inviting in-laws. We're luckier than most kids who grow up seeing abuse -- few are able to break free of the cycle.

To the original poster: regardless of whether or not others characterize your family's actions as abusive, it is clear that they are having an abuse-type impact on you emotionally and psychologically. And that, in and of itself, is more than reason enough for you to take the steps necessary to make a change. Not only is your mental health at risk, but, your children are growing up getting a false impression of what constitutes a healthy, loving marriage. If you think that they won't listen to you, or if you have already tried speaking to them with no success, do not hesitate to discuss matters with a Rov. If you feel uncomfortable speaking with your family posek, call someone anonymously to discuss the situation before considering what might make an appropriate next step.

You deserve to feel comfortable and confident in your family relationship, and your children deserve to grow up seeing what a healthy, loving marriage is -- and if your marriage isn't it, then they deserve to see that a person should stand up for their right to dignity, happiness and respect.

HindaRochel

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 1:21 am

Quote:

What can I do to remain at home without being crushed by all this abuse? Right now, I feel that the only solution is to be home the least possible amount of time.

Dear OP,

There are several things you can do, right now.
First, recognize that the only judge you have, ultimately, is G-d. And to get the best judgement from Hashem you must judge and correct yourself. This isn't a matter of blame; it means however, that you must close your ears to angry tones and cruel statements, look at the facts and decided whether or not they apply to you. If they don't, alter them in your mind (this is hard, very hard to do) to a ridiculous complaint (I always like to turn it into YOUR NOSE IS PURPLE) and then laugh about it inside.

Second, the behavior you describe is normal for teens. I don't know of your dh's behavior; he could be deliberately, or subconsciously trying to undermine you. On the other hand, he may not know how to support you correctly and thereby saying the wrong thing.

(Please know that I have three children 19 and older. And yes, they are hard to deal with but it does get better)

Teens are often super-critical. Anything you do that isn't perfectly in tune to what they think you do is deemed a criminal act. Teens and young adults often feel they "know" what they would do and how you are doing it wrong. Do you remember before you had children how critically you looked at other parents? How you knew you wouldn't do xyz or would do xyz instead? It is a phase and easier to deal wtih if you realize all kids are like this to some extent. Don't take it personally.

Teenage girls are especially hard on their moms, and boys, who are learning all the laws and trying to apply them often try to apply them to their parents.

Third, sit down with your husband and tell him why his words are working against the children's needs. To treat or speak to you or them as if you are crazy or incompetent is wrong. He may not realize the impression he is giving them. Sometimes people are trying to support but don't know how to do it correctly. He may be trying to say (and I could be wrong but I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt) "You need to treat your mother with respect. I don't care whether you feel she is crazy or not. Your feelings about her or how she acts aren't the issue. I don't care if you feel your mother is approaching things the wrong way. Disrespect your mother is assur in all cases. By not listening to your mother, but talking at her like you do you are behaving in a way that is against Torah."

Fourth, tell your children you are not going to respond to their cruel words and will respond only to respectful comments. If your son starts to give you mussar, stop him, tell him you are perfectly happy to discuss ideas with him but he needs to discuss, not tell you things. If he is actually telling you how to do your job, smile sweetly and tell him the job is now his.

If your daughter disobeys, then let her learn the consequences of her disobedience. If she rants leave the room. If she refuses to help you with the dishes, then when she asks you to do something for her, point out that you would like to, but since you have had no help in the kitchen, you are behind in your work and can't get to it right now, try you again later.

If your husband continues to refer to you as crazy, after you have told him the negative effect of his words, ask a rav how you can best respond. Has he spoken to his rav about the situation? Could he be getting the rav's advice wrong? Could the rav have a wrong impression about you? In all cases, approach the rav calmly, try to hold your emotions in check. If you do cry try and regain control as soon as possible and explain that you have been dealing with this issue on your own for some time now, and are feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Maintain calm; that doesn't mean you can't feel, but check to see that you aren't yelling, or acting overwrought (especially if you are talking to the rav.) That doesn't mean the tears can't fall, but you shouldn't be on a puddle on the floor or so choked by sobs that you can't speak.

Hugs...you'll pass through this.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 1:25 am

amother wrote:

yoyosma wrote:

amother wrote:

you mean, amother #3.

No, I meant amother #2. amother #1 posted twice.

How do you know for sure? I read it as the second amother identifying with the first.

Anyhow, do we all assume from now on that if kids use the term "abusive" that it's reliable? I've heard of kids calling parent(s) abusive, when they were told to get off the computer, when they were supposed to. Rolling Eyes

You are right. Thanks for your support. This is the OP, and I did not post the second amother Rolling Eyes

it was someone else, who also has teenagers, what do you know!

To those who turned the topic around and suggest that I'm the problem, without question there are things I can do to improve my relationship with my teens, but the question was how to stand up to their chutzpah, which is aggravating and intolerable, sometimes and I'm very much a pushover and havenever known how to put anyone in their place with oneliners or sharp comebacks.

If I react emotionally, they just write me off as nutty, and my husband seconds it by saying what he does. Staying calm cool and collected is what he respects, and if I don't, then "they still have to respect you" even though it's understood how hard it is to do that Rolling Eyes

. Those two kids are very intense, and it's hard to stay calm through their stubborn refusals or outbursts.

I'm thinking over some of the answers here and thinking that I should have used a different word. Abuse is very broad, and could be too strong.

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 3:59 am

HindaRochel's advice was spot on.

There is one thing I would like to add though.

The blame is not entirely on the shoulders of your husband. By not standing up for yourself and allowing both his and their behavior to continue, YOU consent to this vile treatment as well.

It took me a long time to realize that I did NOT deserve the emotional and mental abuse my ex husband heaped on me. One of the things that galvinized me to leave him was, as someone else here mentioned, my fear of learned behavior and that my children would continue the cycle their father and his parents had started.

Not to talk Lashon haRah (since I have no idea who knows me IRL), my ex learned by watching how his father treated his mother, and how his mother reacted. And unfortunately, he learned the worst aspects of their behaviors. I vowed I wouldn't allow my daughters to continue.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 8:06 am

Quote:

By not standing up for yourself and allowing both his and their behavior to continue, YOU consent to this vile treatment as well.

this is true. OP, I am not sure what the situation is exactly but kmelion is right, you must put your foot down if you can and if not get outside intevention who will help you put your foot down. you are the mother and this is your family, dont let them do this to you.

Quote:

amother wrote:
Ok. U sound like my mom. So, from the daughter's perspective, here it is. Let me warn u not to be offended. Just face reality like a mature adult. k?

I think there is a reason they 'abuse' you. So lets think: do u criticize excessively? not respect them? demand too much respect? Act like a child, meaning, expect them to mother you? Abuse them? Especially emotionally? Degrade them? Belittle them? Embarrass them?

If you are thinking: No, I'm not the problem here. Its only them. I gave them everything! I am a good mother. etc... THINK AGAIN.

amother, I am sorry you dont know everything and you should never be so quick to judge.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 9:16 am

amother wrote:

I think there is a reason they 'abuse' you. So lets think: do u criticize excessively? not respect them? demand too much respect? Act like a child, meaning, expect them to mother you? Abuse them? Especially emotionally? Degrade them? Belittle them? Embarrass them?

IS THERE A MOTHER IN THE WORLD THAT CAN'T BE ACCUSED BY HER CHILD OF ALL OF THE ABOVE, AS PART OF CHILD REARING, IF THE CHILD WANTS TO TERM HER ABUSIVE AND BE CRITICAL OF HER PARENT?

THIS MAKES ME WANT TO HAVE A NEW LIFE MISSION: TO PRACTICE AND ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO PRACTICE BIRTH CONTROL FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

THESE ACCUSING CHILDREN HAVE NO GURANTEE THAT THEIR CHILDREN WON'T FOCUS ON THE NEGATIVE, ERASE THE POSITIVE, AND ACCUSE THEM OF THE SAME, DESPITE GOOD INTENTIONS.

AND, YES, I DO REALIZE THAT THERE ARE CHILDREN THAT ARE TRULY ABUSED, BUT THERE ARE ALOT MORE THAT MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THEY WERE, AND ARE JUST PLAIN ANGRY AT WHAT LIFE DEALT THEM IN OTHER AREAS.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 12:28 pm

greenfire wrote:

Despite alot of judgement here I believe there is alot of good advice too. As a mother w/teens who blame me - they even go as far back to say well you married and had me with him so it is all your fault. Go ahead tell me I'm abusive when I yell too much or do something stupid - I can handle that cause I know I make mistakes. But tell me I'm abusive cause they have a big nose or don't get child support or am not super human - I will never agree. When everything is blamed on a mother who will not give up come hell or high water....the unfortunate negative result is an exhausted, highly emotional mother who wants to stay in bed, on the computer or flush herself down the toilet...yes it's hard to understand unless you too are in the same position.

IF IT WASN'T EMBARASSING, I'D SAY LETS START ABUSED MOTHERS ANONYMOUS! Before you know it, our children might be joining us.

faigie

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 2:14 pm

I was thinking about the posts.......
im not in your situation, bah ill be the first to admit it.
it seems to me that those kids have it too good. they need to struggle for themselves to learn to respect and appreciate what you do for them.
id pack um up and send um to israel......or a sleep away school if possible. something has to break this cycle. then youd have that man of yours to deal with one on one, which might be manageable with counceling.
kind of like the devide and conquer theory.
it just occured to me............
this hubby is acting like a leader of a pack of teenagers. almost as if he is one of them.... and theyve put you in the roll of the adult that they all are agaisnt together,,,, like the administration...was he a "neb" way back when in school?
in school what we do is break up the group, and handle um one at a time.
just my chush, but I think this is the root of your problem.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 2:15 pm

amother wrote:

THIS PROBLEM OF CHILDREN ACCUSING PARENTS OF "ABUSE", IS BECOMING RAMPANT IN THE FRUM COMMUNITY. I HAVE 2 FRIENDS WHOSE CHILDREN CONSIDER THEIR MOTHERS ABUSIVE TO SOME DEGREE, AND MY CHILDREN AS WELL. THESE ARE ALL CASES WHERE THE FATHER IS NOT THE DISCIPLINARIAN AND THE MOTHER HAD TO TAKE ON THAT ROLE. I AND TWO FRIENDS ARE SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES.

BEWARE MOTHERS: IF YOUR HUSBAND IS THE VERY LAID BACK TYPE AND YOU HAVE TO DISCIPLINE ALONE, YOU WILL PAY FOR IT DEARLY, AND NO THERAPY IN THE WORLD WILL CHANGE ANYTHING.
OFCOURSE THERE WILL BE THOSE THAT SAY- BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER, THATS WHY YOU'RE FRIENDS. THE ONES THAT FEEL THAT WAY, HAVE NEVER BEEN IN OUR SHOES.

I knew it. each time you spoke you sounded so much on the defensive. I just knew your own children say you abused them. You make generalizations based on your own experience.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 2:33 pm

Quote:

Quote:
amother wrote:
Ok. U sound like my mom. So, from the daughter's perspective, here it is. Let me warn u not to be offended. Just face reality like a mature adult. k?

I think there is a reason they 'abuse' you. So lets think: do u criticize excessively? not respect them? demand too much respect? Act like a child, meaning, expect them to mother you? Abuse them? Especially emotionally? Degrade them? Belittle them? Embarrass them?

If you are thinking: No, I'm not the problem here. Its only them. I gave them everything! I am a good mother. etc... THINK AGAIN.

amother, I am sorry you dont know everything and you should never be so quick to judge.

Report Post

I'm sorry if this came up in a judging kind of way. That wasn't my intention. I was just giving my opinion of how I view the situation. Because my mom was abusive, ( and I'm not playing blaming games, she really has a personality disorder diagnosed by a professional, which she of course refuses to acknowledge), that is how I personally, identified with this Op. I may be wrong. But on the other hand, I may be right.

JRKmommy ↓

Wed, Jan 17 2007, 3:23 pm

First of all, in order for anyone to be able to give constructive advice, I think it would be helpful to be much more specific about exactly what is going on - what sort of "abuse", what you mean by "mussar", and maybe give a sample dialogue that will typically take place. Otherwise, the OP is somewhat vague and each of us may just be projecting our experiences onto yours.

Second - I think that the best response in general is to have a very firm image of yourself as a capable, authoritative figure who shall be treated with some basic respect. Try to picture in your mind someone who automatically seems to conduct themselves with calm assurance and authority - someone in your community, even a police officer, etc. Would a judge or police officer be reduced to tears, scream or act emotionally if a teen disrespected them? No - they may take control and even punish the teen, but it would be in a level-headed way, without emotion, because the judge or police officer's self-concept isn't affected by whatever the teen does or says.

You can choose how you respond to people. You do not have to listen to someone who speaks disrespectfully to you. You can choose to say, in a calm, controlled voice, "I'd be pleased to listen to you when you can speak to me in a calm, respectful voice." If they continue to raise their voices, you can say, "I'm sorry you are too emotional to talk to me right now. We can talk when you calm down." Then, leave the room and end the conversation.

My mother was/is a teacher, and my sister and I knew her "teacher voice". I use it now on people when I need to be assertive but not so loud that I get in trouble. It goes something like this:

Teen: "I can't believe you won't let me do X! Why don't you get off my case!!!!"

Mom: "You're obviously really upset right now. What's really bothering you? [for teen girls, add, "When is your period due?"]

If the teen answers, "NOTHING'S BOTHERING ME!!", they soon realize that they sound ridiculous, and the argument is over. [Just beware: sis and I used this same line on Mom when she got menopausal]

You can even use it with sales clerks:

Mom: I'm here to pick up the glasses that I ordered and paid for a month ago.

Clerk: Oh, they're not here yet.

Mom: Then I'll need a full refund right now.

Clerk: I'm sorry, I can't process that without the manager here.

Mom: Well then, I suppose you'll need to make sure that I get the glasses that I've already paid for, because I'll be sitting here waiting for them.

Clerk: But we close at 5 p.m.!

Mom: Then I guess you'll have to make some calls and have them delivered here before that. [Sits down and shows that she's clearly not going anywhere.]

Clerk [Makes several panicked phone calls to track down glasses and arrange a driver]

By 4:45, Mom has her glasses. Since there was never any voices raised, no one could called the authorities to get her hauled out, so they are forced to deal with her.