I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 6:16 pm

shalhevet wrote:

To those who think pyjamas are fine at a Shabbos table, do you wear pyjamas/ would you let your child wear pyjamas to a wedding too? Chareidi, MO, or non-religious? Even if they were more comfortable?

.

No, none of us wear pjs to weddings.

Would a charedi woman wear her shabbat robe to a wedding? Would she wear her shabbat tichel to a wedding? (Instead of a fancy, styled wig?)
Would a woman, charedi or MO, wear her house slippers, nice as they may be, to a wedding instead of heels or fancy shoes?
Why is wedding attire relevant here at all?

↑ Barbara ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 7:03 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

And .... if the rabbi dropped by on a Sunday afternoon, DS and DH would run to change out of the pajamas they wear to watch football. Not because its wrong to watch TV in pajamas, but because they don't like greeting guests in pajamas.

↑ sequoia ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 8:35 pm

Yeah, you don't wear pjs when you have guests, regardless of day of the week.

↑ Culturedpearls

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 8:44 pm

sequoia wrote:

Yeah, you don't wear pjs when you have guests, regardless of day of the week.

Shabbos HaMalka is a guest too. As are the malochim who accompany the men from Shul Friday night.

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 9:35 pm

A lot of this post is confusing me. Why would someone raise their child constantly telling them that if they intermarryt heir dead? Why would it even enter your mind that ur kid would intermarry? My parents would never say such a thing, and we managed to all grow up even frummer thenmy parents. This method sounds overly dramatic and kind of creepy. What if u sat shiva for ur child and then they did teshuva? And anyway, I love my childrenso much, there is nothing they can do to make me stop loving them or give up hope.

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 10:56 pm

amother wrote:

↑ b from nj ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 11:11 pm

amother wrote:

I agree! Growing up my parents never had to threaten me about marrying out b/c it totally was not even something that was discussed since it was obvious that I would never consider doing that. In fact, the only guys I ever dated were frum. I would have never even considered having a close relationship with a non-Jewish male & therefore there was never any need for my parents to warn me about it or threaten to sit shiva for me in the event that I would have ever considered marrying out.

In addition, while raising my own kids I have never felt the need to warn them that they would be cut out of my life in the event that they were to marry a non-Jew. I have always sent them to orthodox schools & camps & marrying a non-Jew was never an issue that I felt needed to be discussed with them b/c it is obvious to them (just like it was obvious to me b/f I married) that marrying a Jew is obviously what is expected of them based on the upbringing they (& I) had & they also know that my preference is that they also marry an observant religious Jew as well. At present I only have one child who is dating & I feel pretty secure that she would only consider marrying a fellow orthodox jewish male. My other 2 children are not in the dating stage yet but they certainly know (without me needing to threaten them with sitting shiva for them etc) that I would strongly disapprove of their choice to marry a non-Jew if that would chas v'shalom happen at some point in the future. That said, I hope that I would always continue to overtly (& not abstractly) love my children & allow them to remain a part of the family even in the unfortunate event that they would marry out G-d forbid.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 12:33 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Shalhevet, I'm not deliberately misunderstanding you. I apologize if I wrote anything that offended you.

You wrote, I also have no idea how any normal frum parent can get to this scenario. Good. I hope it remains this way for you.

You ask, If a frum teenager suddenly made such a comment out of the blue, you would start explaining to them why they need to make kiddush?
Yes.

Why did you take my quote out of context? You make it sound here like I couldn't believe a child could say such a thing. I wrote:

Quote:

I also have no idea how any normal frum parent can get to this scenario. How old is this child? And you never suspected anything and suddenly they don't want to make kiddush and you explain to them that they need to make kiddush - which they've known since they learned vayechulu in cheder at the age of 5? If a frum teenager suddenly made such a comment out of the blue, you would start explaining to them why they need to make kiddush?

The whole point was not that a teenager couldn't say such a thing, but that in a normal frum family it wouldn't just happen out of the blue. So there would be no reason to start explaining to them at the Shabbos table the moment it happens why they need to make kiddush (which they would know about intellectually in a normal frum family). When there are volatile situations, especially with teens, the moment they do/don't want to do something is not the right moment to discuss it as level-headed adults.

↑ ora_43

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 1:39 am

chani8 wrote:

Wearing special clothes for shobbos does not mean your clothes have to be special. It means those are clothes that you set aside as special to you, for shobbos, so that you remember the shobbos.

So Shobbos PJs should be fine.

I don't think that's accurate. The sources I've seen say that Shabbat clothes should be "נאה" which is basically "nice clothes" (as opposed to work clothes or regular clothes) if possible.

FTR, this is not a recommendation that people get into screaming fights with their teenage children over wearing pajamas at the table.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 2:49 am

Like what Ora and Shal wrote I think some posters are trying to deliberately misunderstand and mix up things.

The business of "cutting off children" is ONLY about intermarriage not anything else. The child is not "dead" but one is supposed to act, according to ALL the gedolim of previous generations without exception, as if they are no longer "with us". There are those who said to actually sit shiva, and there are those who just said that one acts as if they no longer exist, the shiva concept over "marrying out" comes from the concept that all intermarriage in yesteryear was with a Galach (a priest) and it meant either a conversion of the Jewish partner to whatever or a promise that children would be raised as non jews. When that happens, that is when a Jew converts out halochically one sits shiva for him. This was extended to also sitting for those Jews who married "out" in civil law but then it becomes minhog and not halocho. Just a small explanation where the whole concept comes from.

Now for the pjs and shabbos table. I don't know any DL family and I know many, who would dress in a way that any chareidi Rov who would come to their table would not accept fully that they are in shabbos clothes. The men and boys here are all in white shirts and dark pants, NOT jeans but good dark shabbos pants of whatever kind. No they don't wear hats or ties or jackets and in the winter they cover their white shirt with a nice shabbos sweater or pullover. But you won't find them wearing training tops or zip up type trainings over their white shirt, they are wearing a shabbos sweater, nice and special. The girls wear dresses or blouses and nice skirts whether long sleeved or short sleeved or in between and you can be sure it doesn't look like anything sleazy, untznius or weekday.

As for what Shal wrote about gashmi, I want to second and third and fourth that. Much if not most of what we do in terms of mitzvos aseh is what is called "performative", meaning we do acts, wear special clothes, bow in a very particular way (there are halochos in how to bow for shmoneh esreh, oleinu etc.) etc. Sometimes the guidelines are totally precise, at other times they are general but they are there. Shabbos is a case of general guidelines of wearing something special to honor the "shabbos queen".

How many of the people who are touting the idea of pjs being ok at the shabbos table have special shabbos pyjamas that are ONLY worn on shabbos and yuntif to the table (not for sleeping, meaning "lounge clothes")? I doubt that most people here have them. What is called a "house bekishe" or a "table bekishe" among chassidim or a special shabbos robe? And BTW there are shabbos robes which are definitely beautiful enough to wear as a gown to a chasuneh and I have in my day worn one with a gold belt that zipped up the back and was gorgeous to a chasuneh! Why not? Because it was sold as a shabbos robe? It was so elegant!

Isramom, postpartum women, as we know have different rules so that's not an example.

I also agree that maternal instinct, and in general the instinct to live is extremely strong which is why the halocho is also so strong. In general much of yiddishkeit is to make people go AGAINST their natural instincts. So?

As for the teen who won't make kiddush, as was written here so well by others, it didn't come out of nowhere, meaning until one gets to that stage I assume there were other battles and problems over other issues with such teen and there is a whole dynamic which exists. If it is because he is special needs, that's one thing. If it's plain "rebellious teen issues" it's another and one treats it differently. One can also show great disapproval of a child's action to that child and one is permitted to express that disapproval. Big difference between that and cutting off a child from intermarriage.

As for those of you who would never think of warning a frum child about intermarriage. Well folks welcome to the world in which things have to be said so that a child would never say "we never even discussed it". In our home everything, even the most farfetched scenario, gets discussed. Why? So that there should be clarity about it. What's the chance of a shtark frum girl coming home pregnant? Pretty rare but it has happened. And thus should be mentioned. Or a shtark frum girl marrying a [gentile] and marrying out? Very rare, but that too has happened and thus should be mentioned.

I have a friend whose mother was in a "home" and a granddaughter would go every day to visit and be there with her. She was fifteen and would travel across yerushalayim by bus to see her Bubbie every day after school, such a good girl. And it seems that on that bus was an arab orderly who worked in that home and would try to chat her her up. So of course she didn't chat but one day she forgot her umbrella when it was raining and he had one and told her to take it and give it back to him the next day, and she did. And they began talking a tiny drop as a result. Just talking a sentence a day "hello how are you" nothing more. One day her mother instead of going to visit Bubbie in the morning went with her daughter in the afternoon and saw this. This is a totally CHAREDI girl from Beis Yaakov YOSHON! Get it? Would there EVER be a chance that such a girl would marry out? But you can be sure that her mother, my friend gave her such a talking to and made sure she would only go from then on with her younger sister on the bus to visit Bubbie, never alone. One bus. Fifteen minutes from her area, from one frum area to another frum area. Go know that an arab young man would lend her an umbrella in a downpour. He never "started up" with her. Just "shalom/ shalom". But the mother knew the drill well. You talk about EVERYTHING that could happen and you warn. In advance.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 2:58 am

FS: The child is not "dead" but one is supposed to act, according to ALL the gedolim of previous generations without exception, as if they are no longer "with us". There are those who said to actually sit shiva, and there are those who just said that one acts as if they no longer exist,

Not any more. Start by calling Rav Tovia Singer like I did. You can also get psak from the well known (Chareidi) posek Rav T. of Yerushalayim like I did.

↑ chani8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 3:19 am

ora_43 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Nice clothes, meaning your clothes should be clean and tidy for Shobbos. Maybe you save your best pair of socks, clean your everyday shoes to shine for shobbos, etc. These days many people take this to the extreme that they have a whole set of clothes just for shobbos.

Just FTR, my kids would not come to the shobbos table in PJs unless they were sick or really tired, or what they had worn for PJs was something that could pass for clothes.

But my boys now wear jeans on shobbos. Their idea of what is 'nice' is different than mine. But this is what they ended up with since they would never wear black pants again, and won't wear dockers, either. With their colorful button down shirts, or nice sweaters, it actually works. It doesn't matter what I think anyway, but B"H, I've come to be fine with it.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 3:26 am

We stress too much about our kids' clothes. That's why when they grow up, a lot of kids say to h-ll with it.

I'm into clothes. But not stress.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 4:38 am

We have a good reason to stress about clothes considering what goes on these days in the world around us and what is considered normal by secular society. Clothes are a statement. In every government office these days there is a course on how to be "proper" which is given to those on diplomatic missions or those being sent abroad. The men and women are both taught how to eat properly at a table, how to dress properly and how to look like a mensch. That's because it is not "natural" for people to do so as it once was, but as the standards for proper behavior and dress haven't really changed much in the past 100 years, it just is a reminder of how much "improper" has swayed into what we do and how we should not let it happen.

Jeans on shabbos - Chani let's say that there are jeans and there are jeans. I see some of the younger people in these torn jeans that they BUY like that because it is a style and in their society considered classy. SICK SICK SICK. In no really classy place would people wear worn or torn or faded jeans to someplace nice. It's just not done.

A non jewish restaurant can make a dress code but a jewish home doesn't dare do it for shabbos?

shosh

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 4:58 am

I confess that I haven't read all of this thread. (16 pages is a bit long.)

However, I'll say that even though I agree in principle with everything FS, etc. are saying about wearing nice clothes to the Shabbos table, I'll be honest and say that for some of us it really doesn't work. I actually stopped doing that about six years ago when my troubled ds, then about 10, threw a whole load of hummus and Turkish salad over me in one of his rages. At 16, he b"H doesn't do that anymore, but since then I bought myself a housecoat that I only ever wear on Shabbos, and that's what I wear all day. This is because I am so tired by Shabbos that apart from the meal, I spend most of my time either in bed or lying on the sofa snuggling up with my three youngest kids, who want lots of cuddles and attention to make up for the rest of the week. So I find there's little point in crumpling up nice clothes, and being somewhat of a practical bent, I don't.

My kids, OTOH, do all put on Shabbos clothes, so I suppose I did do something right ...

↑ chani8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 5:19 am

freidasima wrote:

Jeans on shabbos - Chani let's say that there are jeans and there are jeans. I see some of the younger people in these torn jeans that they BUY like that because it is a style and in their society considered classy. SICK SICK SICK. In no really classy place would people wear worn or torn or faded jeans to someplace nice. It's just not done.

A non jewish restaurant can make a dress code but a jewish home doesn't dare do it for shabbos?

I agree about the jeans, and my boys wear nice jeans for shobbos.

But as far as a dress code, I have taught the dress code that I hope for, as they grew up, (and of course we've modified it as we became DL) but now their social circles influence their dress codes.

But anyway, my home isn't a restaurant, it is our home. And Shobbos is a day, not a person, no matter how we pretend there is a shobbos queen. And imo, shobbos can be just as much a Bubby as a Queen, if that is what we need shobbos to be for us.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 5:21 am

I recalled that my daughter who went to high school in Bnei Brak said that most families she met actually don't wear dressy clothes at the Shabbos table. They save that for when they go out on Shabbos.

I guess it's cultural.

↑ Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 5:32 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Yeah, you don't wear pjs when you have guests, regardless of day of the week.

Shabbos HaMalka is a guest too. As are the malochim who accompany the men from Shul Friday night.

Along those lines, we should dress like we're at a wedding. Since they are more important guests than any bridal party. So....why don't we? Why don't (most) women put on their fanciest sheitel for the meal (hopefully after it's been professionally set)? Why don't (most) women carefully apply all the make-up they would for a wedding?
Obviously even the most charedi households do prioritize comfort over formality on some level, on Shabbat. That's why there are shabbat robes (and sorry, the vast majority of women would NOT wear their shabbat robe to a simcha). That's why they prefer long and flowy over tailored, that's why they might just skip the nylons.
The only question is where one draws the line. It's a spectrum, from casual comfort to formality. But I honestly do not see any families where they make no compromises for comfort in the confines of their own home, just because it's Shabbat. No, I don't know any families where they dress on shabbat the way they would for a simcha.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 5:42 am

chani8 wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Not just these days. Rus Hamoavia also had a separate set of clothes for Shabbos, which is where we learn the concept of special Shabbos clothes from.

↑ chani8 ↓

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 5:54 am

amother wrote:

chani8 wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

Not just these days. Rus Hamoavia also had a separate set of clothes for Shabbos, which is where we learn the concept of special Shabbos clothes from.

It's a nice concept but doesn't mean it's halacha.