I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ princessleah

Fri, Dec 21 2012, 12:00 pm

And another thing.
The issue of "respect" (e.g. wearing a kippah in your parents' house).
I have a sibling who is not observant. When they come for Yom tov, they are respectful of my parents house, rules, etc. There is occasionally some computer/ipod use behind a closed door, so ok.
One time I heard there was a slice of pepperoni pizza under the bed, and I flipped out and made them throw it away. I found it very disrespectful and that's the kind of thing I would not go for.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I think as parents people have to realize-- these are not kids, 'spitting in your eyes' or trampling your values-- they're just living their lives. It's regular for them-- they're not thinking about their parents or what it means to you whenever they do something--they're just living like they're used to.

When they're going to go out to a restaurant, which will be not kosher, they lie to my parents, say they are going to xyz kosher restaurant. This is done as 'respect' or 'not wanting to hurt' 'not throwing it in their faces.' I see this perspective. But as a parent, is THIS the kind of respect/relationship you want with your child? To have them put on a charade that they are the kind of child you wanted them to be, so they don't feel guilty and you don't feel disappointed? To know TRULY know your child or how they lives their lives because you will feel too bad? Is ignorance bliss?

I don't know. It's something I think about a lot.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Dec 21 2012, 12:03 pm

princessleah wrote:

I REALLY REALLY resented being viewed as an extension of my parents, and not as my own person.
Also FS, what you talked about a few pages back re: the Holocaust. My family are also survivors and children of survivors. I hate HATE when that was brought up-- you're gonna emotionally blackmail me because my ancestors were in the camps? Is THAT the kind of Judaism we want to practice-- that you're forced or guilted into 'toeing the line' because of the Shoah? I want to practice Judaism, MY Judaism, out of love, belonging, devotion to Halacha, NOT out of some sense of obligation, guilt or shame. Yuck.

No, not at all. You can also guilt 3rd and 4th and 5th generation American kids into staying frum to make up for all the assimilated and missing branches.

Seriously though, OTD kids now are often a different breed. It's not a matter of finding Yiddishkeit irrelevant or sterile or hypocritical so they drop practice but don't drop out, I.e. they'll go to school, maintain jobs etc. Now kids, when they drop out are often dropping out because of serious pain, and there's a great need for yemin mekareves, even while maintaining one's own boundaries.

OTOH, I don't think it's inappropriate to tell a kid that pj's at the Shabbos table aren't optimal. But if the child's not receptive, or there's no good timing, much, much better to let it go.

Brownies

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 1:34 pm

I wasn't going to post but after seeing all those posts trying to "prove" FS wrong by saying you know of families who were brought up on her ideals where half or more of the kids are OTD: I was brought up like this. We knew from the beginning that marrying out would mean being cut off from our family - my parents made this very clear by the way they did not communicate with cousins etc who had intermarried. We were also raised in a warm and loving family that we would not have wanted to be cut off from, aside from the fact that we grew to learn for ourselves that marrying out was wrong. All of us have bH and bli ayin hara grown up to marry Jews and I'd say we range from MO to yeshivish in terms of hashkafa. So don't tell me it 's not possible to love your children and show them that you love them and at the same time make it very clear what your red lines are and what will happen if they are crossed. It is one hundred percent possible if done correctly. And yes there may be some families where one or more of the kids do unfortunately marry out or go OTD, but who's to say it wouldn't have been more of the parents had been more permissive?

(Incidentally pajamas at the Shabbos table were also a complete no-no at my house - it just wouldn't have crossed our minds. We dressed in nice clothes for the sake of Shabbat, not for the sake of our guests. And no, I'm not saying that pajamas at Shabbos table =marrying out, before anyone jumps on me.)

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 2:31 pm

I get a sense of playing G-d in some posts.

A man who married out is "dead" because his descendants won't be Jewish? He's dead when he's DEAD. Till then, he can do teshuva.

Mitzvos we are required to give our lives for? Firstly, you have to know the specifics. Secondly, we don't have to consider someone else who made different choices dead! What mitzvah is that?

Rav Aryeh Levine, and another rav in the DP camps, and many other great people worked to be mekarev people who fell so low as to murder, to harlot themselves, and so on.

Leave judgment of such a serious nature to the True Judge, and not make things worse with a detrimental attitude.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 2:49 pm

FS asked: Do you think that if your Rov of your kehilla would suddenly knock at the door at the middle of your shabbos meal, and come in and see you all in your pyjamas, would you be embarrassed?

I'd announce that he was at the door, and anyone who felt the need to go change or disappear, would. After that, no, I wouldn't be embarrassed, because I'm confident in my attitude regarding chinuch.

For the record, my family chooses to wear Shabbos clothes at the table. One kid went through a T-shirt phase. Seriously not worth making a big deal about, or even a small deal. So much worse to make an issue over it.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 3:51 pm

A Gite Voch to everyone.

I don't think that some of the posters here understood the "red line" business and the cutting off business and have mixed up apples with oranges.

Wearing clothing or special shabbos robes to the shabbos table is a STANDARD based on a very widespread social interpretation or even for some, a halochic interpretation of how one is supposed to honor the Shabbos Hamalka. One does not "cut off" children if they refuse for whatever reasons to do this. It may on the other hand in such a family, be a violation of "kibbud horim" if they do so, that's another story. But it is not a "red line".

I keep saying that parents should have very few red lines and choose them sparingly...and be willing to take it to its conclusion. For many families, THE red line is intermarriage. One will accept (although be quite unhappy) as an adult a child's choice to be non religious and not cut with them. One will accept (although not willingly or happily) as an adult a different mode of dress which you might consider outree...but you don't cut with your children for that.

If they are still "children" meaning living under your roof, being financially supported by you, that's a different story, in those cases I, and many others, believe a parent has a right to make "house rules" for children and you are a child as long as you aren't self supporting and as long as you are still living under your parents' roof. I am talking as an adult.I would definitely force a 15 year old child living under my roof to keep shabbos and kashrus in front of me in my house, period. No discussion whatsoever and they would know this since the day they could understand the words coming out of my mouth. I therefore would also expect no discussion about it. yes they might try to push the envelope about dress or hashkofo or bedtime or whatever as teens if they would be rebellion. But the biggies? Not a chance and they would know not to even dream of it, just as my kids knew not to ever dream of having a tantrum in a store past age two or whatever the age of reason was. They knew straight off what would happen and it wasn't worth their breath to even try it.

And they never did b"h. None were special needs, none has serious emotional problems or physical problems that would have changed the above equation and therefore such parenting worked just fine as it does, BTW, with most "normal" kids who don't have the special challenges listed above.

But red line? The kind that if they cross they lose me? That was intermarriage. Period. And they knew it. It wasn't an issue to mention things like "becoming an axe murderer". That wasn't exactly happening around them in their world. But intermarriage is a poison that unfortunately has seeped into Jewish life particularly abroad and we discussed it often.

THAT was the red line. My kids laugh with me today that I would tell them even as little kids that no matter what choice they would make in life - and I emphasized that the only choice I would be happy with would be if they would stay frum to whatever degree and believe me that degree was very very broad in these discussions, I expected three things from them which they all promised me and that I know for certain all of them keep today: 1) that they would recite Modeh Ani when they got up every morning 2) that they would keep a strictly kosher home and 3) that they would say Shma every night.

Why those three things? The kosher home so that the entire family would always be able to eat at everyone's house and be together and the other two so that the boundaries of their day would relate them to Hashem and Yiddishkeit. Not that the rest wasn't obligatory, but if they would choose for whatever reason not to be "frum", they would have the framework reminding them morning and night.

AND...as they also reminded me, the "talk" would end with "and if you G-d forbid marry a [gentile] you are dead to us, period. We will never mention your name, we will sit shiva for you and we will never see you again."

They heard this from the time they were three. Seriously. They grew up with it and as Dotty wrote, not only did it work very well for us, all the families that I know who brought up their kids that way..it worked very well for them as well in terms of no intermarriage.

And yes, guilt works. A heck of a lot of people talk a lot of narishkeit of doing everything through teaching and understanding and realizing that it's the correct way. Balderdash@! and I am thinking of another word that beings with B that is a lot stronger. That is the way one would theoretically want everything to be while in truth, a good deal of what we do, we do out of guilt. And that is GOOD. It means we have a conscience because believe me, and I say this professionally, people are wired to be selfish, are wired to be out for their own good to the detriment of others. Which means that "if they don't feel like it" they would definitely prefer to sit home and chill out and not shlep every sunday to see Bubbie and Zeidie with the grandchildren and it's only the feeling of guilt that Bubbie and Zeidie are alone and otherwise would never get them to see the grands that makes them get up off their duff and dress everyone up warmly and shlep every sunday for an hour to see the family....as so many families did in my childhood and still do today.

That's GUILT talking and it works just fine. It's un PC to say so but FEAR and GUILT are the main reasons that people do good things on a continuous basis. Sure the one time "oomph" feeling of wanting to do something good, that happens all the time - on a one time basis. But to do something over and over, even when one REALLYy doesn't feel like it or want to (because after all, we are all wired to be selfish in our psyche, that's a given)...then the real movers that keep us doing that good thing over and over are guilt and fear.

Otherwise truthfully? We would be acting like animals, selfish animals most of the time.

So don't knock guilt and don't knock fear because those are the mechanisms that if we are going to be 100% honest, keep us doing good things and keep us from doing bad things on a continuous and regular basis, even when tempted not to keep to the straight and narrow. So be honest about it at least.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 3:53 pm

And Isramom - would YOU remain in your pyjamas in front of your Rov at the shabbos table? And how many members of your family would run to change at that moment because they know that it isn't proper to sit in Pjs at the shabbos table?

I doubt if any of the adults or older children at your table would think it is correct to remain seated like that. Meaning they all know that it is not proper to be dressed like that at the shabbos table.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 3:58 pm

Again Isramom - we all know what the three categories of "yehoreg va'al ya'avor" are and there are some which require no explanation.

However for people saying that their child is more important to them than yiddishkeit I ask again, as there is no discussion about the definition of "shfichus domim" in terms of pure murder and there is no discussion that having relations with one's father under any and all circumstances (except possible if you were the last two human beings alive on this planet, a la the story of lot's daughters) is giluy arayos - how many people would have relations with their father if someone holds a gun to their child's head and says "do it or I will klll your child".?

We all know that halochic answer to what one has to do, there is no question about it. Whatsoever. Which is why I picked something that has both a straightforward halochic answer and also a tremendous social taboo.

So...for the people saying that their child's life is more important to them than the Jewish religion...what do they say one has to do under such circumstances?

Or if a person says "murder the first person who opens this door or I kill your child"?
(Because there is a halochic discussion that if the person with the gun says "murder X" by name there is a slight possibility of a heter to do so a la the discussion that the Rambam has about if one says to give up someone by name)...

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:00 pm

I get a sense of cultural isolation in some posts. Do most of us not know people from cultures where all of what FS is describing and much more would be well within the norm?

I would guess that 90+% of the Arab Muslim families in my area have expectations regarding what their children wear at home. And that the girls in those families know that marrying out means cutting ties with their family.

And yet, most people I've met from that culture have a close, loving relationship with their families. In many ways, they tend to be closer than the typical American family - adult kids tend to live close to home, and there's a lot of support even among adults (grandparents watching grandchildren, young adults helping care for elderly grandparents, etc).

Yes, there are extreme cases in life where parents try to control almost everything in their children's lives, and/or make it known that their love is earned through "right" behavior. And that usually ends badly.

Similarly, there are extreme cases in the other direction where parents set no rules for their teens (or have rules but no enforcement) because they simply can't be bothered, or are too busy dealing with their own issues to guide someone else. And that also tends to end badly.

But most people are somewhere in the middle, with some rules of the "while you're in my house you listen to my rules" variety (whether that be no tank top at the Shabbas table, mandatory school attendance, or no drug use) and some things they let slide to give their kids room to be themselves.

An American family that has rules about proper dress in the house may be edging too close to one extreme, but that isn't necessarily true of families living in other communities.

↑ chani8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:24 pm

freidasima wrote:

This kind of thing has happened more than once to my family. To be sitting around in our DL clothing, when a charedi person/rabbi from our past, showed up to visit us. Not shobbos, though, but the feeling was the same. Like, oh no, look how we are dressed. Should we be embarrassed? I would cringe, knowing what they would think of us. But there was no time to change, to cover up, to hide. So what do we do????

Stop caring what they think about us. This is who I am. I don't care what you think, anymore. I don't speak the language of social pressure. And it is a total turn off to my kids, too. They would be like, "Mom, we're fine. Who cares."

Just to put another perspective on this, if a Charedi Rav showed up at a DL shobbos table, you might as well be in PJs, because you'll look like it to him anyway. So, where does the pressure end? What you wear for shobbos may be what I would wear to go to work. Is the shobbos queen coming to judge our clothes?

In my current community, even if a community DL rav dropped by, the PJs would be fine!! No social pressure.

Our Torah was given to you and me, not to only the elite, not only to those of you who dress fancy for shobbos. To stam little ole informal me, too. So yes, Shobbos is for PJ wearers, too!

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:37 pm

I don't wear pjs to the shabbat table (although some of my kids will, especially on Fri. night. They have very nice pjs, fancier than some of their clothes, cozy, warm....I like to see them in their pjs Fri night!! I hate it on shabbat morning though.....)

Anyway, back to our point. I do not dress or behave at home as though a rabbi is going to knock on the door at any minute, be it shabbat or not. We live our lives as we see fit. If a rabbi (or for that matter, any guest who wasn't family) knocked on the door on shabbat, likely no one would be phased but me. I wouldn't run and change, but I'd probably feel better if I had my 'public face' on (less comfy/flowy clothes, a bit of make up, hair done).
What, should I wear my more tailored clothes to the table, put on make up (instead of letting my face breathe at home), brush my hair back in a clip, every shabbat, just so I won't be embarrassed if someone shows up?

I don't understand the connection between the way one respects shabbat in their own home and the way they act/dress around non-family members.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:38 pm

To those who think pyjamas are fine at a Shabbos table, do you wear pyjamas/ would you let your child wear pyjamas to a wedding too? Chareidi, MO, or non-religious? Even if they were more comfortable?

I am pretty amazed at the attitude here. Someone said wearing Shabbos clothing is not like making kiddush or hamotzi - well, actually, it is. It is kavod Shabbos which is halacha. Although Shabbos clothing could vary from community to community - but I can't imagine anywhere where pyjamas is considered more kovedick clothing.

So if I was in a situation where I'd turn a blind eye to whether or not my child made kiddush, I'd turn an equally blind eye to what they were wearing. If my child had different dress norms, I would be okay with their wearing formal/fancy or just nicer clothes according to those norms at my Shabbos table.

To those who complained that we are turning Judaism into an external religion, where what you wear is important, instead of our internal beliefs, I have news for you. In Judaism lots of gashmi, external actions are very, very important - what you wear, what you eat, and even with who and when you have relations. If you are thinking do what you like as long as your heart is in the right place - you have the wrong religion.

↑ chani8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:39 pm

freidasima wrote:

We should just never be tested, FS. Because when it comes right down to it, my child comes first. Most mamas would do anything for their children, whether that be allowing themselves to be raped, or throwing themselves in front of a bullet. Women have prostituted themselves to feed their children. Bottom line is, we have maternal instincts that are more powerful than the halacha.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:43 pm

Reread my post...it sounds like I spend my shabbat dressed like a slob -- I would like to take this opportunity to emphasize that is NOT the case at all. I could probably leave the house in what I wear to the table most shabbatot. I do my hair nicely, just in a loose natural style.
In general, I tend to choose comfort over style when at home.

(As for the kids -- even when they come in pjs on fri night, they are all of course after their daily shower, hair washed and clean, brushed and styled neatly).

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 4:57 pm

Shalhevet: So if I was in a situation where I'd turn a blind eye to whether or not my child made kiddush, I'd turn an equally blind eye to what they were wearing.

Right. You tell your child to make kiddush. He or she says, "Leave me alone". You explain nicely that kiddush is necessary. Your child says, "Do you think I don't know that? I'll make kiddush if I want to make kiddush."

You:
1. Inform the child that he or she is dead to you and/or no longer welcome in your home.
or
2. Close your mouth for now.

Which do you think will more likely result in the child outgrowing the rebellious stage and being happy to remain within the fold?

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 5:01 pm

FS: If I were, say, postpartum and sitting at my Shabbos table in a plain robe, and a rav I knew walked in, no I wouldn't be embarrassed. Neither would I take excessive responsibility for my children's own choices.

Furthermore, I don't know any rav, Chareidi or otherwise, who would judge me badly for not being embarrassed or for not being harsh with my child about this matter. I think they would judge me well for my parenting choices.

And the rabbonim I know who have experience with chinuch would advise me to do exactly as I would do, under these circumstances.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 5:17 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? You have had several posts on this thread where you seem to have obtusely misread my and other people's posts and/or taken them to an extreme that they clearly never meant.

How on earth did you get from my comment to 1.? I never said anything about anyone being called dead under any circumstances, and those (anyone else apart from FS?) who said that were only talking about INTERMARRIAGE. Please go back and read the thread. I also have no idea how any normal frum parent can get to this scenario. How old is this child? And you never suspected anything and suddenly they don't want to make kiddush and you explain to them that they need to make kiddush - which they've known since they learned vayechulu in cheder at the age of 5? If a frum teenager suddenly made such a comment out of the blue, you would start explaining to them why they need to make kiddush?

To clarify what I meant for anyone else wanting to be stupid or nasty - there are circumstances where I wouldn't tell someone to make kiddush (maybe like the scenario you described, or, lehavdil, if someone was sick etc.) and then I wouldn't tell them to get dressed for the Shabbos table either. I was saying that kiddush is halacha and wearing special clothes for Shabbos is halacha.

Apart from which I'd probably do 3. anyway = consult with an expert on chinuch as to what to do. Because since I have more than one child, I always try to take into account how chinuch for one child affects the others (if they are present).

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 5:21 pm

Shalhevet, I'm not deliberately misunderstanding you. I apologize if I wrote anything that offended you.

You wrote, I also have no idea how any normal frum parent can get to this scenario. Good. I hope it remains this way for you.

You ask, If a frum teenager suddenly made such a comment out of the blue, you would start explaining to them why they need to make kiddush?
Yes.

Last edited by Isramom8 on Sat, Dec 22 2012, 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 5:32 pm

chani8 wrote:

Just to put another perspective on this, if a Charedi Rav showed up at a DL shobbos table, you might as well be in PJs, because you'll look like it to him anyway.

Not any hareidi rav I've met.

Quote:

So, where does the pressure end? What you wear for shobbos may be what I would wear to go to work. Is the shobbos queen coming to judge our clothes?

The pressure ends at dress that shows kavod within the individual community. If in Community X pajamas are considered fancy dress, the kind of thing you'd wear to a wedding or a community dinner, then I'm sure everyone would agree that they're appropriate Shabbat wear for people in that community even if Community Y sees things differently.

Of course there are situations where people need to dress more comfortably for whatever reason - I'm not saying it's a yehareg u'bal yaavor.

↑ chani8 ↓

Sat, Dec 22 2012, 5:50 pm

Wearing special clothes for shobbos does not mean your clothes have to be special. It means those are clothes that you set aside as special to you, for shobbos, so that you remember the shobbos.

So Shobbos PJs should be fine.