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-> Parenting our children
-> Teenagers and Older children
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greenfire
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 Thu, Dec 20 2012, 9:15 pm
| Culturedpearls wrote: |
Again we're all going around in circles because everyone is bringing their issues & present situation to the table. |
so you actually sat shiva for a kid who went otd & married out ... my condolences to you
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amother
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 9:28 pm
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I grew up in a BT home and remember thinking as a teenager that just like my parents had no traditions and decided on what they're going to do, well I'm going to do the same thing. So I think the large number of bt's here is a factor in why so many parents seem so permissive. Maybe they feel guilty for not allowing their children to have that time of exploration like they did. Those of us that spent our entire lives frum however, now see it very differently. We so strongly believe that even a little time otd is so damaging to a person that we can't allow our children to go in that direction at all. So even if it's going to happen it will be a huge battle but hopefully it won't come to that.
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freidasima
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 8:16 am
I find this thread interesting in the light of threads I have read here over the years. Parents on the one hand post threads here all the time about wanting to know how to raise their daughter to dress modestly, how to raise their children to keep this value or that one but then when the answer is "you have to set red lines" so many posters, primarily young, primarily Americans, say "oh how can we, that's limiting our children's autonomy," etc.
Of course one can't equate wearing pyjamas to the shabbos table as a regular thing with marrying out. But the underlying premise is stating one's values and teaching children that there are consequences for not keeping values. In some cases the consequences are immediate and short term when living under a parent's roof. In other cases they are immediate and long term. But it's all part and parcel of how people view what a parent's role is, what a parent's rights are in the child-parent relationship, what role Judaism plays in their value system, what type of society they live in and how much they are going to let the outside society influence their core value system and actions.
It looks like the american "giving up on being able to change the intermarriage situation" has entered the Jewish value system held by some modern orthodox Jews. Could be that they can't change it for others, but how can they make their own children toe the line?
and that opens a pandora's box the minute someone here writes "what right to we have to make an adult child "toe the line"?
And that opens an even bigger pandora's box in my opinion when someone frum writes that her children are more important to her than her religious teachings. So what kind of Orthodox Jew are they if they reject the yehoreg ve'al yaavors? I'm not saying sleeping with a [gentile] is or is not one of those mitzvos I really never looked into it. But if someone says "kill X or I will kill your child, by halocho you aren't allowed to kill that person".
Mayleh, killing, but how about bowing down to an idol? How about gilui arayos? Have relations with your father or I will kill your child.
What would you do?
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Ruchel
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:27 am
I would do most (all?) things to keep my children alive, physically AND ESPECIALLY spiritually...
In any case, I do not believe one can be happy and not at least lite shomer mitsvos. Hashem built Jewish souls that way that they need connection and connection is through mitsvos and avoiding averos.
If the child is religious only out of fear of you, how sad. But he still is not serving you, and is still doing mitsvos and avoiding averos and IYH there will be a healthier generation... if you lost your child to intermarriage (lo alenou, this s one of the worst things I can imagine), well... do you really think all your (great)grandchildren will convert?
and if it's a dd who intermarries, lo alenu, even if SHE tells her boys "you can't, I could because I was a girl and Judaism says mothers carry Judaism", the kids will just say "whatever! now you listen to Judaism?". And yes as a shadchanit I see it. As a person of European descent I see it.
I am MO, but very not American & I guess very old school.
As usual, caveat: MO ranges from very lite to as strict as charedi in practice, it also ranges from very old school to very progressive, etc.
Now, I do NOT believe all non jews are antisemitic, or at all religious. If anything, in my world, most are at best agnostic. In my world, most non jews, and certainly most non jews who marry a Jew, do not send to a Catholic school, and certainly not one "shtark" enough to be openly antisemitic.
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Ruchel
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:34 am
| b from nj wrote: | | Let me just add that not all kids who go OTD will NECESSARILY intermarry. Many kids will marry another non-religious Jew & make their own lives together. |
BH. Especially in Israel.
But statistically, well, frei people are much more at risk. 
I have ONE kinda-relative (the son of the wife of my great uncle) who not only married out (unfortunately common for Sefardim who come from a Shoah survivor background), but also raises his children Catholic, lo alenu.
His mother and stepfather, while fully atheistic and anti religious and assimilated (the kind who even refuse to speak Ladino, put on a kippa in a shul, take a bit of apple on Rosh Hashana etc), were HORRIFIED and considered him crazy.
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MrsDash
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:43 am
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I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us?
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Barbara
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:47 am
| freidasima wrote: | I find this thread interesting in the light of threads I have read here over the years. Parents on the one hand post threads here all the time about wanting to know how to raise their daughter to dress modestly, how to raise their children to keep this value or that one but then when the answer is "you have to set red lines" so many posters, primarily young, primarily Americans, say "oh how can we, that's limiting our children's autonomy," etc.
Of course one can't equate wearing pyjamas to the shabbos table as a regular thing with marrying out. But the underlying premise is stating one's values and teaching children that there are consequences for not keeping values. In some cases the consequences are immediate and short term when living under a parent's roof. In other cases they are immediate and long term. But it's all part and parcel of how people view what a parent's role is, what a parent's rights are in the child-parent relationship, what role Judaism plays in their value system, what type of society they live in and how much they are going to let the outside society influence their core value system and actions.
It looks like the american "giving up on being able to change the intermarriage situation" has entered the Jewish value system held by some modern orthodox Jews. Could be that they can't change it for others, but how can they make their own children toe the line?
and that opens a pandora's box the minute someone here writes "what right to we have to make an adult child "toe the line"?
And that opens an even bigger pandora's box in my opinion when someone frum writes that her children are more important to her than her religious teachings. So what kind of Orthodox Jew are they if they reject the yehoreg ve'al yaavors? I'm not saying sleeping with a [gentile] is or is not one of those mitzvos I really never looked into it. But if someone says "kill X or I will kill your child, by halocho you aren't allowed to kill that person".
Mayleh, killing, but how about bowing down to an idol? How about gilui arayos? Have relations with your father or I will kill your child.
What would you do? |
FS, I suffer with bad psoriasis on one hand. Sure, I could get rid of it by amputation, but that's a draconian and unnecessary measure. In fact, if that's the only way to get rid of it, I'll live with it.
So too with your parenting techniques. If they're the only way to ensure that your kids to remain Orthodox Jews, then maybe its not worth it.
But its not the only way. I'll argue that its not even a valid or successful way.
My parents did things pretty much the way you'd like. They wound up with one kid who barely speaks to them, and another who has spent a lifetime suffering from depression and low self esteem.
Another family I know would tell you that things worked out perfectly and that they got the kids to act precisely the way the parents would choose. They may even believe it. They don't know that their pre-teen son buys ice cream in the park Saturday afternoon, that their teenaged daughter propositions random boys, that their high school aged son sleeps around, or that their college-aged daughter had an abortion after getting pregnant by a non-Jewish boyfriend. And who knows about the littlest 2.
Our job as parents is not to lay down red lines and tell our kids that they'd better toe that line or we will withdraw our love. Our job is to teach our children where those lines are. To help them to understand why the lines are there, and why that is a good thing. But, as they approach adulthood, to understand that they're going to have to find those red lines for themselves, but that we will always be there to guide and to love them even if their lines are in different places.
Just to add, I remain horrified by the dressing for Shabbat thing. Its as if appearances matter more than substance. If you don't look the part, put on your costume like a good little boy in the school play, we'll kick you to the curb. The clothing is more important than making kiddush, washing, saying motzei, making Shabbat. Is that really what you think Hashem wants?
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Ruchel
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:47 am
| MrsDash wrote: | | I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us? |
Non Jews are not dead because they have a descendancy, not Jewish like themselves. All good.
Jews who have non Jewish children are "dead" because they halachically don't have a descendancy. Unless such descendancy choses to convert-but then it's a machlokes whether they are considered a "new" line or their children.
Jews who don't have children for reasons out of their control are not "dead" because they leave good deeds and neshamos created by kosher relations.
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MrsDash
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:50 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us? |
Non Jews are not dead because they have a descendancy, not Jewish like themselves. All good.
Jews who have non Jewish children are "dead" because they halachically don't have a descendancy. Unless such descendancy choses to convert-but then it's a machlokes whether they are considered a "new" line or their children.
Jews who don't have children for reasons out of their control are not "dead" because they leave good deeds and neshamos created by kosher relations. |
So us Jews got lucky that we were born Jewish and not, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists, etc?
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b from nj
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:51 am
| Barbara wrote: | | freidasima wrote: | I find this thread interesting in the light of threads I have read here over the years. Parents on the one hand post threads here all the time about wanting to know how to raise their daughter to dress modestly, how to raise their children to keep this value or that one but then when the answer is "you have to set red lines" so many posters, primarily young, primarily Americans, say "oh how can we, that's limiting our children's autonomy," etc.
Of course one can't equate wearing pyjamas to the shabbos table as a regular thing with marrying out. But the underlying premise is stating one's values and teaching children that there are consequences for not keeping values. In some cases the consequences are immediate and short term when living under a parent's roof. In other cases they are immediate and long term. But it's all part and parcel of how people view what a parent's role is, what a parent's rights are in the child-parent relationship, what role Judaism plays in their value system, what type of society they live in and how much they are going to let the outside society influence their core value system and actions.
It looks like the american "giving up on being able to change the intermarriage situation" has entered the Jewish value system held by some modern orthodox Jews. Could be that they can't change it for others, but how can they make their own children toe the line?
and that opens a pandora's box the minute someone here writes "what right to we have to make an adult child "toe the line"?
And that opens an even bigger pandora's box in my opinion when someone frum writes that her children are more important to her than her religious teachings. So what kind of Orthodox Jew are they if they reject the yehoreg ve'al yaavors? I'm not saying sleeping with a [gentile] is or is not one of those mitzvos I really never looked into it. But if someone says "kill X or I will kill your child, by halocho you aren't allowed to kill that person".
Mayleh, killing, but how about bowing down to an idol? How about gilui arayos? Have relations with your father or I will kill your child.
What would you do? |
FS, I suffer with bad psoriasis on one hand. Sure, I could get rid of it by amputation, but that's a draconian and unnecessary measure. In fact, if that's the only way to get rid of it, I'll live with it.
So too with your parenting techniques. If they're the only way to ensure that your kids to remain Orthodox Jews, then maybe its not worth it.
But its not the only way. I'll argue that its not even a valid or successful way.
My parents did things pretty much the way you'd like. They wound up with one kid who barely speaks to them, and another who has spent a lifetime suffering from depression and low self esteem.
Another family I know would tell you that things worked out perfectly and that they got the kids to act precisely the way the parents would choose. They may even believe it. They don't know that their pre-teen son buys ice cream in the park Saturday afternoon, that their teenaged daughter propositions random boys, that their high school aged son sleeps around, or that their college-aged daughter had an abortion after getting pregnant by a non-Jewish boyfriend. And who knows about the littlest 2.
Our job as parents is not to lay down red lines and tell our kids that they'd better toe that line or we will withdraw our love. Our job is to teach our children where those lines are. To help them to understand why the lines are there, and why that is a good thing. But, as they approach adulthood, to understand that they're going to have to find those red lines for themselves, but that we will always be there to guide and to love them even if their lines are in different places.
Just to add, I remain horrified by the dressing for Shabbat thing. Its as if appearances matter more than substance. If you don't look the part, put on your costume like a good little boy in the school play, we'll kick you to the curb. The clothing is more important than making kiddush, washing, saying motzei, making Shabbat. Is that really what you think Hashem wants? |
Well said Barbara!! 
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Ruchel
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:53 am
| MrsDash wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us? |
Non Jews are not dead because they have a descendancy, not Jewish like themselves. All good.
Jews who have non Jewish children are "dead" because they halachically don't have a descendancy. Unless such descendancy choses to convert-but then it's a machlokes whether they are considered a "new" line or their children.
Jews who don't have children for reasons out of their control are not "dead" because they leave good deeds and neshamos created by kosher relations. |
So us Jews got lucky that we were born Jewish and not, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists, etc? |
Everyone is born the way he should.
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sneakermom
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 9:57 am
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Thank you Barbara for expressing that so well.
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MrsDash
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 10:02 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us? |
Non Jews are not dead because they have a descendancy, not Jewish like themselves. All good.
Jews who have non Jewish children are "dead" because they halachically don't have a descendancy. Unless such descendancy choses to convert-but then it's a machlokes whether they are considered a "new" line or their children.
Jews who don't have children for reasons out of their control are not "dead" because they leave good deeds and neshamos created by kosher relations. |
So us Jews got lucky that we were born Jewish and not, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists, etc? |
Everyone is born the way he should. |
Especially geographically. If I was born in Iraq, I would most likely be Muslim.
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amother
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 10:05 am
Amother who is BT: while this may be your experience I find the opposite. That many BT's are so concerned to "get it right" that they may be less permissive than FFB.
May everyone get nachas from their children.
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amother
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 10:06 am
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And as to the BT's I know, regarding exploration since they have seen up close and personal the destructive nature of that they are less likely to tolerate it.
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Ruchel
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 10:13 am
| MrsDash wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: | | I'm confused. People are considered "dead" if they marry out of Judaism -Does this mean all non-Jews of the world are dead to us? |
Non Jews are not dead because they have a descendancy, not Jewish like themselves. All good.
Jews who have non Jewish children are "dead" because they halachically don't have a descendancy. Unless such descendancy choses to convert-but then it's a machlokes whether they are considered a "new" line or their children.
Jews who don't have children for reasons out of their control are not "dead" because they leave good deeds and neshamos created by kosher relations. |
So us Jews got lucky that we were born Jewish and not, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists, etc? |
Everyone is born the way he should. |
Especially geographically. If I was born in Iraq, I would most likely be Muslim. |
We are born just when and where we are needed 
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greenfire
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 11:16 am
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barbara ~ a poignant reminder
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greenfire
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 11:17 am
| MrsDash wrote: |
Especially geographically. If I was born in Iraq, I would most likely be Muslim. |
but not necessarily as I do know of iraqi jews
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MrsDash
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 11:25 am
| greenfire wrote: | | MrsDash wrote: |
Especially geographically. If I was born in Iraq, I would most likely be Muslim. |
but not necessarily as I do know of iraqi jews |
Right, but the chances are significantly higher for someone to be born a Muslim.
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princessleah
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Fri, Dec 21 2012, 11:54 am
I think there is a bit of a generational divide here, or a European vs. American style as has been pointed out. FS, they way you talk reminds me a lot of my own mother, who is from a Hungarian family, old-world, old-school. Growing up in America, once I was in high school, I couldn't understand why what I wore reflected on HER-- I was my own person, with a functioning brain, so if somebody saw me, why would they automatically think-- look at that girl, she must have a terrible mother to dress that way!
The item of contention: wearing Keds without socks. According to my mother, if someone saw me, they would think: 'look at that girl without socks. She must be raised by gypsies.'' Besides being totally racist, it is not a good sentiment because it completely negates any choice by the teen, or any sense of the teen being an autonomous being. And for some things, yes, children should be able to have some autonomy.
I understand the sentiment more now-- sometimes in shul at a Bat Mitzvah, I see the friends come in and think, 'HOW DO THESE MOTHERS LET THEIR DAUGHTERS OUT OF THE HOUSE LOOKING LIKE THAT???" It's usually a case of miniskirts and stilettos, but I guess one person's miniskirt is another person's Keds. I will try very hard to NOT feel this way, to just let it go, let my kids have their own minds, and if they leave the house dressed in a way I would not prefer (not in a miniskirt to shul!) I will not get caught up in how I think others will judge me, and just let them be.
I REALLY REALLY resented being viewed as an extension of my parents, and not as my own person.
Also FS, what you talked about a few pages back re: the Holocaust. My family are also survivors and children of survivors. I hate HATE when that was brought up-- you're gonna emotionally blackmail me because my ancestors were in the camps? Is THAT the kind of Judaism we want to practice-- that you're forced or guilted into 'toeing the line' because of the Shoah? I want to practice Judaism, MY Judaism, out of love, belonging, devotion to Halacha, NOT out of some sense of obligation, guilt or shame. Yuck.
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