I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ freidasima ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:29 pm

It's all in the upbringing and in a general way of life.

I think that in a lot of practical or temporal issues I may be very MO (television, movies, censorship, secular educational values, professions for women, etc.) but in a lot of values I am definitely what one might call old fashioned charedi. Because my basis is that of Torah values uber alles. And if I saw or felt a dichotomy between my MO temporal or practical choices and what I understand to be and was taught are Torah values, you can be sure I would have no problem turning my back on that temporal issue and choosing the Torah value.

To me in my world and in the world of many Jews marrying Jewish especially today after the Holocaust where we lost a third of the Jewish people, is a value that is absolute. Better not to marry than to marry out of the religion. Because marrying out of the religion for many of you is such a pareve thing, you think, marrying out means marrying someone non Jewish and the kids basically grow up nothing bla bla bal. But in my world, a person who marries out is potentially sending their child to Catholic school to be taught that the Jews - that's me right - killed their messiah, killed their Yoshkeleh, and should be persecuted until they accept the truth of his being the savior and Son of G-d. It's adding another person to that group of Jew haters who so outnumber the chassidei umos haolam that help and support the Jewish people among the Gentiles.

My world is very dichotomized when it comes to religion. In my profession when I am abroad I work with a lot of non Jews, particularly European non Jews, and let me tell you, scratch them in many countries and you find an antisemite. Don't put me for too long in a room with a Belgian [gentile], or a British and particularly Irish [gentile] or with a French [gentile], and I'm not to happy about the Polish and Ukranian ones I have had dealings with either. Many of you talking about "marrying out" are so used to "pareve non jews" that you forget, or never knew, what their teachings are all about.

Now on the child rearing issue of parents making red lines.

Somehow it reads to me of a great deal of individualism if you talk so much about your child's happiness being more important than your values. Why do you feel that way? Is it because you really don't feel that strongly about your values? Or are you so afraid that your children have been taught to be so selfish that if you make red lines they will cross them as they are so used to doing whatever they want even if they hurt their parents?

To me it sounds like Mars all this permissive and lazy parenting. Let your kids come to the table in sweats on shabbos. Why? Because they are comfortable? Obviously you don't mind it. Do you think that if your Rov of your kehilla would suddenly knock at the door at the middle of your shabbos meal, and come in and see you all in your pyjamas, would you be embarrassed? and if so, why do you do it?

↑ freidasima ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:37 pm

Saw one can love a child in one's heart and cut them off because of their actions. There is absolutely no dichotomy between the abstract love that you feel for a particular person and the fact that in action you cut them out of your life because what they do and their way of life is totally against your values.

You may hate the sin and love the sinner but you don't have to have contact with that sinner. It's well known.

I also think that in a frum family where kids are taught from age zilch, verbally, continuously and consistantly, that one of the consequences of their marrying out will be to lose their family, those kids will think a million times even if they are put in that nisoyon, whether it is worth it to lose their entire family to have a relationship with Mr. or Mrs. Non-Jew.

It also seems to me that some of you are in truth very afraid of your children, of putting them to the test in anything and you would rather that the kids rule the household rather than face up to the fact that if you made something an issue, because these children are so used to permissive parenting, that they would fail the test and you would look like an idiot. Better not to test them, better not to face up to the fact that basically you are letting your children, their choices and their values rule your house. Because that is what it sounds like here in many issues.

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:05 pm

Let me just add that not all kids who go OTD will NECESSARILY intermarry. Many kids will marry another non-religious Jew & make their own lives together. I happen to have several Israeli cousins who were raised Dati Leumi in a religious Yishuv in the the Shomron but for whatever reasons chose not to continue to be religious at adults & I will say that I am VERY impressed with how my uncle & aunt deal with it. They DEF continue to maintain contact with their non-religious children & grandchildren & invite them for shabbos & yom tov often. I have no doubt that they are pained that their children have chosen NOT to continue to be shomer shabbos but despite that, they seem to love their kids & continue to have close relationships with them.

This has NOTHING to do with allowing the children to rule the roost or the parents being afraid of the children or whatever other insulting claims FS mentioned in her responses. It is simply showing children that they are loved & will NOT be cut off from the family despite their differences in religious observance. I am impressed with the unconditional love that I see my aunt & uncle showing their kids which I am sure is very difficult for them (b/c I'm sure they are disappointed in their kids' life choices) but they do it anyhow out of parental love.

↑ marina ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:05 pm

tb wrote:

I had to read all the way til page 10 for someone to finally say - Sometimes you just got to tell them that you love G-d more than them!

My husband heard a story from R' Schwab. His father ran a very kid friendly seder. When they got up to the arbah bonim he would always ask them which kid they wanted to be like and of course they all said the Chocham. One year for a joke one of teh kids said "a rasha". His father got very serious and told them, I love you all very much but I love hashem more and if any one of you would become a rasha you will not be welcome in my home.

And if you would maintain a relationship with a kid who marries out but not with a kid who is an ax murderer then you are giving more crediance to societies norms than judaisms.

Stop being crazy. Just stop. I have no time for this.

Marrying out is...choosing to stop keeping some parts of your religion. Being a murderer is ...shooting first graders.

Don't even compare the two. Ugh.

And Freidasima- this is where I get off the train. I would never cut off ties because my child married out.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:25 pm

I really have to say this. Never among all the frum (or even traditional) people I know of all stripes have I seen this laid-back, half accepting attitude to intermarriage that I have seen on imamother.

Oh it's not really that bad, especially if it's a woman since her children will still be Jews.

What gift should I send to my friend who is intermarrying?

What should I wear for the reception for my cousin's wedding who is marrying a non-Jew, because of course I'm not going to the ceremony, only to the rest of the wedding?

Which leads me to believe this is a prevalent attitude among frum Jews in America (or who recently lived there), since that is a large proportion of imamother members, and people I don't know in real life.

This is just a thought and I have no way of knowing, but it's interesting that there are much higher rates of intermarriage in the US than in any other society (maybe France has higher levels), especially considering that there is more kiruv, Jewish education etc. there than anywhere else apart from EY. (okay, I know it's still a drop in the ocean, but it's an even smaller drop in the ocean in England too.)

I really am wondering out loud (or rather to the keyboard), but maybe some of those intermarriages are caused or encouraged by the fact that when Laura first meets a non-Jew and he asks her out, she remembers that her friend Lorraine has a really frum, extreme, hair-covering cousin called Leah and even she didn't think it was so terrible that Lorraine married out, and even came to her wedding.

BTW, as I understand marrying a non-Jew is arayos (and probably az too) and is yehareg ve'al taavor. S-x with a non-Jew is yehareg ve'al taavor for a man, and only not for a woman if she is forced into it.

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:47 pm

I am working on my attitude because I am afraid I am going to lose (my kids), if I keep it up. I know your shitta Shal and FS. But it doesn't work for me. I see that.

When I put halacha and my religious values in front of my relationship with my teens, I'm insensitive to them. I can't get past my beliefs to be able to really listen to them, to feel close to them.

Instead, I think thoughts like "s/he is slapping me in the face.They're spitting on the Torah, and all I believe in" Etc. And it not only makes me too angry to parent effectively, it hurts me terribly and I spiral into depression.

So I think this shita of religion first, doesn't work for everyone. And instead we put a totally different perspective on religion, and decide, being religious is a choice. I think it is the right choice. My kids will know what I believe. And I hope they choose wisely too. But if they don't, bottom line is, it is their problem. It is between them and G-d.

↑ greenfire ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:57 pm

Quote:

yehareg ve'al taavor

nobody has control of the world or from whom one is borne ...

so to say one should 'die rather than violate' is an interpretation that practically says moshe rabbeinu himself should not be accepted by the jews ... after all he did marry not a bas yisroel ... what about boaz & rus ... do you remember dovid hamelech ... how about MOSHIACH ???

I pray you see the light !!!

אם לא בעולם הזה ... בטח בעולם האמת

[Moshe's wife Tzippora converted to Judaism before he married her. Rus was also a giyores. Dovid Hamelech descends from Boaz and Rus, and Moshiach ben Dovid descends from Dovid. These are not examples of intermarrying.
I am responding here rather than three pages later because I feel it is very important for anyone reading the post to realize that Moshe et al neither practice nor condone intermarriage.
As usual, for questions or concerns please pm me or Yael. -merelyme, as mod.]

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:03 pm

I'm the amother who posted about her relatives kids.
Chani8
You keep saying that teens should be treated as adults" and what not.
In my book, adults should have the baisic human charachter traits of gratitude, of respect for ones elders, respect for parents, and being concsious of their surroundings.
If a child can dress in a way that seriosly offends their parents sense of values and decency in front of their parents deliberatley hurting them, then that child is exhibiting extremely immature behaviour.
YEs I expect my child to care enough about my feelings in front of me to not wantonly do what they want, they can feel its nonsense.
Could be.
Makes no difference.
I am their mother.
I raised them.
I got up at night for them.
I paid tuition for them.
I did everything for them.
If they can't care enough about me to be respectful in my presence then they are not decent human beings.
And IMO if that should ch"v happen and there are no mental disorders.
Then Yes as hard as it may be for me to face the facts I failed as a parent.
My job as a parent is to make sure that at a bare minimum my children have basic moral values, a basic moral compass to be a credit and not burden to society.
And they better understand world does not revolve around them.
They are part of the world and better act like it.
B"h so far they have.
If a teen wants to be treated as an adult then they better act as an adult.
Now about "intermarrying" thats a thornier issue and really seperate from the thread as a whole and FTR record while I completley agree with FS on that point as well as I come from a family where traditionaly if a child intermarried one sat shiva for them.
In my family a child marrying out is literally an unspeakable horror.
It once came out in a conversation that one my Fathers nephews had "shmad zuch" (married out) and I asked my father why he did'nt tell me considering he had known it for months.
He just looked at me and said "I can't talk about such things, We don't talk about it".
However thats a religous issue making it a differnet topic then what the rest of the thread developed into.
What I find interesting is that I know for certain that I am well to the right of FS in Halacha yet I feel as if I so completley agree with FS on much of what she has written about parenting that I could have written it myself.
Why?
I attribute it not just to European and American parenting styles, rather to the fact genuine ethical values used to be a universal trait.
It was something self understood that crossed "party lines" so to speak.
It was one of those things that we could all unite around.
Sadly it has become "controversial".
IMHO raising children has become more about "being friends" with a child then actually raising that child to be a normal adult.

↑ b from nj ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:11 pm

chani8 wrote:

I agree Chani8, we CANNOT force religion & frumkeit down our kids' throats & often that approach will backfire at one point or another (think of the imamothers who cry to us that their husbands don't want to be religious anymore etc). I think we should want our children to be thinking individuals who make their own life choices but who hopefully have been influenced positively along the way by OUR examples & our Torah way of life. Unfortunately, there are SO many kids from ALL across the frum spectrum (from very chassidish to very MO) who choose to give up the religion for one reason or another in their teenage or later years. Of course, that is very sad to me & it is not what I would want for my children but they need to be able to make their own decisions in life just like I made MY own decisions which may have differed slightly from those of my parents. As parents, we need to PICK OUR BATTLES with our kids & NOT turn every difference of opinion into the biggest deal in the world. This is not easy. Then again, parenting is not easy, especially parenting teenagers unless they are forced to be robots who are completely controlled by their authoritarian parents (maybe then it is easier, not sure though!).