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-> Parenting our children
-> Teenagers and Older children
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freidasima
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 Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:56 am
Some posters here think that "parenting" is policing or threatening non stop.
Whew. What a misnomer then.
Parenting in my book is acting like a parent should. Giving advice, guidance, helping find solutions to problems, (often paying for those solutions), taking care of children, grandchildren, serving as a yardstick and a model, and creating a home with standards that one believes in and beliefs that become a standard. It is non stop educating for our entire lives. As my mother said, when you become a mother, it's a mother for the rest of your life, no matter what. You never stop teaching, you never stop educating. At a certain point when your children are no longer under your roof and you are no longer supporting them you can not insist on certain things, but it is hoped that if they are brought up with these values consistantly from birth it will be natural for them to keep to them, albeit at times with their own variations. But on the core things? If they aren't like you in this, I would say that one has not succeeded too well in the educational component of being a parent.
I would definitely say that even if a child comes to the intellectual decision that religion is false, that there is no G-d, that it is all narishkeit and the like, and as much as that might devastate a parent it is a child's human right to come to that conclusion, that doesn't mean that such children have to disregard what kind of behavior such parents would want to see or not see in their presence. That is derekh eretz. It's like that in every framework. There are dress and behavior codes for work, for school, for home, for various societies. A child who doesnt learn how to do it correctly? He's going to have a very hard time in life with people who, unlike parents, don't love him milechaschila and don't forgive him so fast for his outree behavior in an unacceptable setting.
Now for threats - If a child is brought up with these values consistantly from birth then there is no need to act like a policeman or to threaten non stop. The kids already know, on their own, that there are consequences to actions. That's the name of the game. Consequences. How does one teach a small child consequences? One explains and when necessary one acts. If you hit moishie you will have to go and sit in your room alone and not be able to play with the other kids. Shmuley hits? He learns very fast that mommy means what she says, that there are consequences. In a normal frum home one doesn't have to tell kids - if you turn on and off the bathroom light for fun on shabbos you will go to gehenom (!!!) all you have to do is tell them and show them how to act. Kids naturally want to please parents, it's a built in. If they don't from a young age, then know that you have a kid with real emotional problems, get him to a therapist FAST, that's a tip off for small children if they never want to please a parent with their actions or cant figure out how to.
If when a kid is five, nine, eleven, he hears: "we only marry yidden. period. If someone doesn't we don't want to have anything to do with him because we believe that he is destroying am yisroel by then having non jewish children" the kids absorb it. It has to be said when they are small over and over. Or "we keep shabbos b"h. It is so sad that other yiddien didn't have the education to understand the beauty of shabbos. But we did and we know how important it is, etc". A five year old doesn't have a yetzer to be an apikoris usually, especially if everyone around him is shomer shabbos. That's why it is important to have a peer group that is like you, neighbors and friends and a school on the same general derekh. I say general because I may be shtark MO and a neighbor charedi yeshivish and across the street we may have a family of chassidim and even have a conservative shomer shabbos family in the building...but we ALL KEEP SHABBOS basically the same way. sholom aleichem, aishes chayil, etc. Kiddush, motzi, shabbos clothes, shul, shabbos clocks, shabbos blech, special food, no using a car, no using electricity, no using the computer, you get the picture. Teach the beauty of shabbos and in school it's enough that the kids learn the onesh for being mechalel, it's part of torah learning.
If kids are normal kids and not special needs, and are brought up right even if they are rebellious and if everything is consistant and parents consistantly are sure of their derekh without vaccilating and even if they believe in live and let live as I do - you can be sure I told my kids that means treating other derochim with respect WHILE REMEMBERING THAT THOSE ARE NOT OUR (underlined twice) DEROCHIM. We have our derekh and we were lucky enough to keep to it for generations, even after the Holocaust in which their Zeide was tested daily and asked shaylos in camp by people how to act, what to do, and that the scar that the older ones remember that he had over his eye came from the kapo smashing his head on his first day in concentration camp when at the end of the day he went over to the window to daven mincha and the kapo hit him saying "this is not a synagogue, there is no G-d here, you will go up in smoke, no need to pray to him"....but their Zeide davened three times a day, every day for all his years in the camps and who in the world are THEY to stop that chain of belief and davening.
Yes it all makes an impression. You can't just rely on people doing something for the beauty of it. My father z"l and I have written this many times here on the site, would always say that we have a question, why do we daven in the morning that we should "vesargilanu bisorosechu" that we should become "used" to Your Torah? What's with the concept of every action having Kavvono? What is this making it a "habit" kind of thing, a "hergel" as we say in Hebrew? And the answer is that people go through nisyonos. And during those nisyonos if it isn't so ingrained in you that there is something which is a habit...like a reflex, that's the time that out of anger, dispair, or uncaringness one gives it up.
And that should be avoided by our actions in frumkeit becoming so inmeshed in our being like a reflex, that even at those hard times, like when my father was in concentration camp, the reflex part would come through even if cognitively one wasn't coping and was angry, in despair, etc. Which, as he said, was how, when even after hearing that his sister and parents had been murdered, that he had no one left in the world practially, and he wanted to kill himself that night and put his hands on the electric fence and his chaverim held him down and talked to him all night that after the war they would go to Eretz Yisroel and build a new life and have lots of children and have a nekomo in that against Hitler yimach shemo...that the next morning, after all of that he "automatically" started saying pesukei dezimro before his forced labor...and the next day and the next, until his dispair lifted and he heard what his friends were saying and he went back to wanting to live and loving Hashem.
That, is what he taught me good education at home is, and good parenting is. That he learned from his father z"l and his father's father before him. That there will be nisyonos and therefore one has to teach children such that their doing mitzvos the right way is so ingrained in them that even in dispair...it continues.
Which reminds me of a friend of mine, FFB who went away from it, and is for many years secular and told me that still at night when she isn't thinking the last thing she will think about before sleep are the words of kriyas shma al hamita which come unbidden into her mind. And which she then says. So go know.
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saw50st8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:57 am
| freidasima wrote: |
Green forgive me, I certainly did not mean to write anything hurtful.
What I meant was gendered. A woman can have a lovely shabbos house robe which can be really beautiful. Totally comfortable, something she would never wear in the street yet elegant enough that it is special for shabbos and not her usual housecoat.
Obviously this coming to the table in weekday sweats is not the norm otherwise people
would not be writing about it as an issue, right? Whatever it is I agree that everyone has to find the style that works for them, whether in clothes or parenting. The problems begin when they dont think it is working for them too well...as some are writing here or saying between the lines. |
OK thanks for clarifying. I grew up in a single parent household and many people did express the "your family is worthless without a man" statements in one way or another. I'm a bit sensitive for it.
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:03 am
Saw, you are once again mixing up love and acceptance of action.
Your family might love you forever in the abstract sense of the word, no matter what you do.
But they are also permitted to state that there are actions that if you do them, you will have turned against their core values to the extent that they no longer want to have anything to do with you while you are acting that way, or believing and as a result, taking certain actions as a result of that belief.
That's not love, that's is acceptance.
Why do you think that a parent has to be such a spineless, brainless, shmatta that in order to have contact with his child he has to be willing to have his deepest, strongest, most core beliefs trampled and spat on in front of him? What exactly is contact with such a child worth? Contact for the sake of what? The sake of contact? Why is contact with someone who hurts you so much and tramples on all one believes on more sacrosanct than those beliefs? That makes a parent into a milk cow, only there to give, with no right of beliefs of their own, a mind of their own, a deciison of their own and no right to protect themselves emotionally from their child who is emotionally battering them.
Would you say that if a child is physically battering a parent, endangering their life, that such parent has to agree to be in physical contact and proximity to that child? Absolute acceptance of that child's actions no matter what? Why? To have their body killed?
Here it's the same. Their psyche is being killed. Why be in contact with such a child? And if such a child knows it, and that their parent will carry through and if this concept exists in such child's world since they were born, from their earliest education (and not brought up suddenly in college for the first time) you really don't think that it will act as a deterrent to that child for anything?
Then that child really had a bad education or a serious emotional problem. One has to stop being afraid to say to children "these are my red lines and if you cross them, know what the consequences are".
It's not a threat.
It's a promise.
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Culturedpearls
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:06 am
| freidasima wrote: | Some posters here think that "parenting" is policing or threatening non stop.
Whew. What a misnomer then.
Parenting in my book is acting like a parent should. Giving advice, guidance, helping find solutions to problems, (often paying for those solutions), taking care of children, grandchildren, serving as a yardstick and a model, and creating a home with standards that one believes in and beliefs that become a standard. It is non stop educating for our entire lives. As my mother said, when you become a mother, it's a mother for the rest of your life, no matter what. You never stop teaching, you never stop educating. At a certain point when your children are no longer under your roof and you are no longer supporting them you can not insist on certain things, but it is hoped that if they are brought up with these values consistantly from birth it will be natural for them to keep to them, albeit at times with their own variations. But on the core things? If they aren't like you in this, I would say that one has not succeeded too well in the educational component of being a parent.
I would definitely say that even if a child comes to the intellectual decision that religion is false, that there is no G-d, that it is all narishkeit and the like, and as much as that might devastate a parent it is a child's human right to come to that conclusion, that doesn't mean that such children have to disregard what kind of behavior such parents would want to see or not see in their presence. That is derekh eretz. It's like that in every framework. There are dress and behavior codes for work, for school, for home, for various societies. A child who doesnt learn how to do it correctly? He's going to have a very hard time in life with people who, unlike parents, don't love him milechaschila and don't forgive him so fast for his outree behavior in an unacceptable setting.
Now for threats - If a child is brought up with these values consistantly from birth then there is no need to act like a policeman or to threaten non stop. The kids already know, on their own, that there are consequences to actions. That's the name of the game. Consequences. How does one teach a small child consequences? One explains and when necessary one acts. If you hit moishie you will have to go and sit in your room alone and not be able to play with the other kids. Shmuley hits? He learns very fast that mommy means what she says, that there are consequences. In a normal frum home one doesn't have to tell kids - if you turn on and off the bathroom light for fun on shabbos you will go to gehenom (!!!) all you have to do is tell them and show them how to act. Kids naturally want to please parents, it's a built in. If they don't from a young age, then know that you have a kid with real emotional problems, get him to a therapist FAST, that's a tip off for small children if they never want to please a parent with their actions or cant figure out how to.
If when a kid is five, nine, eleven, he hears: "we only marry yidden. period. If someone doesn't we don't want to have anything to do with him because we believe that he is destroying am yisroel by then having non jewish children" the kids absorb it. It has to be said when they are small over and over. Or "we keep shabbos b"h. It is so sad that other yiddien didn't have the education to understand the beauty of shabbos. But we did and we know how important it is, etc". A five year old doesn't have a yetzer to be an apikoris usually, especially if everyone around him is shomer shabbos. That's why it is important to have a peer group that is like you, neighbors and friends and a school on the same general derekh. I say general because I may be shtark MO and a neighbor charedi yeshivish and across the street we may have a family of chassidim and even have a conservative shomer shabbos family in the building...but we ALL KEEP SHABBOS basically the same way. sholom aleichem, aishes chayil, etc. Kiddush, motzi, shabbos clothes, shul, shabbos clocks, shabbos blech, special food, no using a car, no using electricity, no using the computer, you get the picture. Teach the beauty of shabbos and in school it's enough that the kids learn the onesh for being mechalel, it's part of torah learning.
If kids are normal kids and not special needs, and are brought up right even if they are rebellious and if everything is consistant and parents consistantly are sure of their derekh without vaccilating and even if they believe in live and let live as I do - you can be sure I told my kids that means treating other derochim with respect WHILE REMEMBERING THAT THOSE ARE NOT OUR (underlined twice) DEROCHIM. We have our derekh and we were lucky enough to keep to it for generations, even after the Holocaust in which their Zeide was tested daily and asked shaylos in camp by people how to act, what to do, and that the scar that the older ones remember that he had over his eye came from the kapo smashing his head on his first day in concentration camp when at the end of the day he went over to the window to daven mincha and the kapo hit him saying "this is not a synagogue, there is no G-d here, you will go up in smoke, no need to pray to him"....but their Zeide davened three times a day, every day for all his years in the camps and who in the world are THEY to stop that chain of belief and davening.
Yes it all makes an impression. You can't just rely on people doing something for the beauty of it. My father z"l and I have written this many times here on the site, would always say that we have a question, why do we daven in the morning that we should "vesargilanu bisorosechu" that we should become "used" to Your Torah? What's with the concept of every action having Kavvono? What is this making it a "habit" kind of thing, a "hergel" as we say in Hebrew? And the answer is that people go through nisyonos. And during those nisyonos if it isn't so ingrained in you that there is something which is a habit...like a reflex, that's the time that out of anger, dispair, or uncaringness one gives it up.
And that should be avoided by our actions in frumkeit becoming so inmeshed in our being like a reflex, that even at those hard times, like when my father was in concentration camp, the reflex part would come through even if cognitively one wasn't coping and was angry, in despair, etc. Which, as he said, was how, when even after hearing that his sister and parents had been murdered, that he had no one left in the world practially, and he wanted to kill himself that night and put his hands on the electric fence and his chaverim held him down and talked to him all night that after the war they would go to Eretz Yisroel and build a new life and have lots of children and have a nekomo in that against Hitler yimach shemo...that the next morning, after all of that he "automatically" started saying pesukei dezimro before his forced labor...and the next day and the next, until his dispair lifted and he heard what his friends were saying and he went back to wanting to live and loving Hashem.
That, is what he taught me good education at home is, and good parenting is. That he learned from his father z"l and his father's father before him. That there will be nisyonos and therefore one has to teach children such that their doing mitzvos the right way is so ingrained in them that even in dispair...it continues.
Which reminds me of a friend of mine, FFB who went away from it, and is for many years secular and told me that still at night when she isn't thinking the last thing she will think about before sleep are the words of kriyas shma al hamita which come unbidden into her mind. And awhich she then says. So go know. |
That's beautiful!
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saw50st8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:11 am
FS, I really disagree with you.
My mother raised me to always get dressed for the Shabbos table. Always. And she gave me good chinuch. And I disagreed with her - that's allowed.
If my mother's core value was that clothing is so important, then she clearly missed the boat. If your child wearing something that you disagree with feels like you are a shmatte, then you have to reevaluate.
But I disagree with your definition of love and acceptance. I think you are talking semantics. Why is your desire to have me religious more important that my desire to find a spouse that I love? Its not, even if you disagree.
The whole concept of cutting your kids off for doing things you disagree with is abhorrant to me. Your kids are their own people. They make their own life choices. They choose differently even if you "gave them the right chinuch all their lives."
I've read the stories about your son and how he hurts you often. Do you think your chinuch worked welll on him?
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Isramom8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:56 am
Shalhevet, obviously there's a balance. Any statements on this thread, taken to an extreme, are ludicrous hashkafos.
I feel that our kids have a very clear understanding of our beliefs and ideals, so there is no need to ram it down their throats and police them with our rules. They're smart. They get it! And sometimes a child needs space to incorporate a behavior on his or her own, maybe find his or own specific way. Between school, home and general society, there can be way too much pressure, when pressure is unnecessary. I don't have to knowingly add to that. Just being who I am states loudly and clearly what I want from my children.
Parenting never ends - even Rebbetzin Heller says that. She also says that children will make their own choices, whether you allow them to or not. Ponder this.
(Regarding the couple who walked out of my simcha, they could have just not showed up. I'm annoyed to realize that I unintentionally disappointed them.)
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:58 am
My son? Hurting me? What do you mean? He doesnt hurt me. I think that his attachment parenting has gone too far in the fact that he and his wife won't let anyone except them touch their 18 month old daughter and insist that they have to physically have a hand on her all the time. I think that is NUTS and I say that as a therapist...maybe when a child isn't walking and running yet to have that kind of bonding and attachment parenting. But now that she is running around? And they stop everything they do and run with her? I laugh at this kind of craziness because it will obviously end when they have three children, one more than these children have parents, but to say it "hurts me"? You must be kidding. It's just crazy!
Hurting would be if he would turn against yiddishkeit. Hurting would be if he would be a murderer or a criminal instead of going into a profession as he has. Hurting would be to turn against his brother and sisters. How he parents his little girl is NUTS IMHO but it's not "hurting me" in that sense......you readeth me quite wrong if that's what you got out of any of my posts on their parenting style. They may be hurting their little girl, but as we can already see, she is so smart and wily that she will soon run faster than they do and get out of their smothering clutches!
Now for love and acceptance. You are reading what you want in my posts which have nothing to do with what I am writing.
Your mother obviously didn't think that dressing likoved shabbos was a really integral part of shabbos or she would have made a stand on it. You seem to be stuck on the concept of "dressing" as if it is some kind of strange and unimportant custom. There are many families like mine that coming to the shabbos table in pyjamas would be like coming naked. It's no done, not because of decorum but because of our halochic interpretation of what shabbos is and what doing something likoved shabbos is. It's part and parcel of a lifestyle and education and not something that any parent who holds like we do would give in on. If your mother gave in on it, obviously it wasn't as important to her as it is to families who hold shabbos like we do. Shabbos is DIFFERENT in EVERYTHING. If one can afford it one uses different plates and silverware, glasses, and of course wear different clothing than on weekdays.
A child has every right to make their own life choices...when they are no longer under my roof. If they don't like it, then suck it up and leave at 18. Why would they want different choices when we give them so much choice? They can wear what colors they want, they can study what they want, they can get up when they want and go to sleep what they want, they can eat what they want within the realm of kashrus and what we/they can afford, and they can read what they want, watch what they want on TV, go to the movies they want, be friends with whom they want, and believe what they want. No problem.
But under my roof, on my dime and in my presence, they have to act a certain way. They have to keep shabbos and yuntif, they have to go through the motions at least of davening and the like, they have to dress in what I consider a modest way and my definition of modesty in the home when it's only us is very very casual. They can not use unclean or nasty language in front of me ever. If one of them begins to slip up and say "oh SH..." and sees me coming round the corner you can be sure that even now at 32 it will turn into "oh shucks mom"...and we will all smile.
That's derekh eretz.
Why in the world should I pay to support a child who spits in my face on my values? What am I, a shmatte? A patsy? I have values and in my home, my vote is stronger than anyone but my dhs.
Another thing you are misreading. I wouldn't cut off my child for being irreligious. I would expect him/her in my home to toe the line on religion, what he/she does in her own home is her business. It's extra derekh eretz for a child who isn't religious when a parent comes over to put on a kippa to eat in her presence, but in his own home, it's not mandated as it is under my roof.
I would however certainly cut off my child for marrying a Gentile. It's a red line. My religion - yes it is more important than having contact with a child of mine who spits so much in my face and in the face of the entire Jewish people that he is choosing his libido and his "love" of a person over the love of the Jewish people.
We love life. And yet we are commanded as Jews to give up our lives willingly if faced with one of three aveiros. The Yehoreg - rather be killed - ve'al yaavor. For someone who accepts that concept we know that there is somtehing bigger then LIFE. In t his case I say YES there is something bigger than being in contact with my DNA who is not acting as my child and who is spitting in the face of the Jewish religion and turning its back and stepping on my faith. It is being true to my beliefs in HASHEM.
Yes, Hashem comes before my children. That is what the whole Akeidas Yitzchok is all about. Choosing G-d over one's own flesh and blood. That is what the entire Jewish religion is predicated on. Now here I'm not killing my son, I'm not taking a knife to his throat, but I am keeping G-d commandment of being THE JEWISH PEOPLE and if my child would turn so far against the teachings of the Jewish relgion that he would turn his back on it, I wouldn't want contact with such a person anymore. Why in the world would I want contact with them??
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Isramom8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:10 am
Golda in Fiddler didn't willingly turn her back on her child for marrying out. Because she was a mother. With a mother's love, there's always hope. Maybe Chava would remain intermarried, but she might retain something of Torah values in her heart and in her practices. Can we judge what that's worth in Hashem's eyes?
And maybe she would come back, at least part of the way. Or her children. Or her grandchildren.
The only chance at our having a positive influence is by way of a positive relationship.
My intermarried family member knows in no uncertain terms that I believe the relationship is absolutely forbidden, a complete aveira. And we still work on maintaining an excellent relationship.
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chani8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:11 am
| freidasima wrote: |
Why in the world should I pay to support a child who spits in my face on my values? What am I, a shmatte? A patsy? I have values and in my home, my vote is stronger than anyone but my dhs.
Another thing you are misreading. I wouldn't cut off my child for being irreligious. I would expect him/her in my home to toe the line on religion, what he/she does in her own home is her business. It's extra derekh eretz for a child who isn't religious when a parent comes over to put on a kippa to eat in her presence, but in his own home, it's not mandated as it is under my roof.
I would however certainly cut off my child for marrying a Gentile. It's a red line. My religion - yes it is more important than having contact with a child of mine who spits so much in my face and in the face of the entire Jewish people that he is choosing his libido and his "love" of a person over the love of the Jewish people.
We love life. And yet we are commanded as Jews to give up our lives willingly if faced with one of three aveiros. The Yehoreg - rather be killed - ve'al yaavor. For someone who accepts that concept we know that there is somtehing bigger then LIFE. In t his case I say YES there is something bigger than being in contact with my DNA who is not acting as my child and who is spitting in the face of the Jewish religion and turning its back and stepping on my faith. It is being true to my beliefs in HASHEM.
Yes, Hashem comes before my children. That is what the whole Akeidas Yitzchok is all about. Choosing G-d over one's own flesh and blood. That is what the entire Jewish religion is predicated on. Now here I'm not killing my son, I'm not taking a knife to his throat, but I am keeping G-d commandment of being THE JEWISH PEOPLE and if my child would turn so far against the teachings of the Jewish relgion that he would turn his back on it, I wouldn't want contact with such a person anymore. Why in the world would I want contact with them?? |
I understand what you are saying here. And it does seem empowering for the parent to establish red lines and feel that they would be willing to give up a relationship with their child if he violated those red lines.
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:26 am
I do not believe that these are my red lines. I believe that these are the Torah's red lines. I have very very very few red lines in my life and this is one of them. Intermarriage. We cut.
Fiddler on the roof is a bastardized version of the Sholom Aleichem novel, Tevye der Milichdiker. Have you read the original? In that one both Tevya and Golda turn their backs on Chava and then, when there is a pogrom and she sees her mother in law go and steal her mother's shabbos candles from the house that they were forced to vacate and she sees how the Gentiles are kicking out the Jews, literally kicking them and stealinig from them, she turns her back on her husband and his family and she returns to her family who is being expelled from Anatevka, she does teshuva and leaves her non Jewish husband and comes back to yiddishkeit and leaves with her family.
THAT's the real story behind Fiddler on the roof.
Chani, it's not a question of empowerment for parents. It's empowerment for Torah. Parents are only the shaliach in this case. it's not "my will versus yours". It's "the torah's will versus yours".
That's a BIG difference.
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:32 am
Another thing. I don't work in Kiruv. I work in protecting my family. First and foremost my immediate family.If there are very extended family members who have married out, why in the world would I want to have contact with them? By not having contact with them I also show my immediate family what my values are and what to expect in general.
Remember, this isn't something where we changed a derekh, this isn't something where my purpose in life is to be mekarev the non jewish children of a mixed marriage of a fourth cousin. I don't want my children to know such people in the first place when they are children. If they decide on their own for whatever reason as adults to establish a relationship with their intermarried fifth cousin, so be it, I won't stop them. That is their choice. But for the life of me I couldn't imagine a circumstance where they would seek such a relationship unless for whatever reason that cousin would approach them and want to learn from them about yiddishkeit etc. for purposes of converting. That would be a different story. But "stam" to "be friends" with a fifth cousin that they never met, and the only thing they knew about them if they knew at all was that "X married out"? Why would they want contact like that?
Protect your children from such influences when they are children, when they are more swayed by peer pressure and by seeing things going on around them. It's less of a problem for adults whose values are more jelled. Most of you know I don't believe in censoring my children's reading or Television or movies or studies or anything like that, at any age. I save my red lines for what I see as life and death of the Jewish people and the kids knew it from age zilch.
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Isramom8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:34 am
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If Hashem wants Chava to see antisemitism, and Chava chooses to open her neshama to use what she is shown as an opportunity to do teshuva, then Chava will return to Yiddishkeit without her mother having cut her out of her heart. Let's leave kareis to the True Judge.
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marina
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:39 am
| sequoia wrote: | | marina wrote: | | sequoia wrote: | I am with you all the way greenie!!!
FS.... For heaven's sake.... It's cultural... Russian families don't wear outdoor clothes at home unless we are giving a dinner party with guests. Nothing to do with not following the Torah or not honoring the Sabbath. Why expect everyone to be like you? |
What? I'm trying to recall occasions where we all walked around in pajamas because there were no guests. I can remember only some Sunday mornings my mother wore a robe. I have no idea why you think Russians don't wear outdoor clothing unless it's a dinner party. What? |
You didn't have "home clothes"? In my family and in all my friends' families everyone changes into home clothed/pjs when they get home. |
No. I only started changing out of work clothes and into my denim skirt recently, after I started wearing suits to work. We never had "home clothes." If you mean domashnaya odezhda- I guess I heard of that, but it just meant regular clothing, not fancy.
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Isramom8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 7:54 am
FS, I'm not going to share personal family details, but essentially I agree with your suggested guidelines for young children as far as intermarried relatives.
I want to make the point that if you don't get to know people, then yes, as you said, the only fact you will know is that they married out, but you won't know who they are as complete people. If they seek Torah and Hashem, you will never have the privilege of encouraging that, or even knowing that.
We are one klal, one family.
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 8:06 am
Isramom why should a parent allow themselves to be hurt and condone that child hurting them?
If a parent feels so strongly about yiddishkeit then why do you think he should keep contact with a child who is spitting in the face of his values?
Don't go all dramatic. No one is "cutting anyone out of one's heart". a child never leaves a heart of a parent but that doesn't mean that the parent has to have practical tangible contact with an adult child who is spitting on that parents values and made a conscious decision to do so, especially if that parent believes that these are the values that Hashem wants us to have and anyone going against them DELIBERATELY (and not as a tinok shenishba) is choosing to be a sinner.
Since when does the torah command us to do anything to a sinner but to rebuke them and if that doesn't work, to keep faaaar away from them...?
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freidasima
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 8:10 am
If my children decide as adults to work in kiruv, I'm all for it, that's great and it means that they feel that they are strong enough in yiddishkeit not to be influenced by the outside against their ways and it also means that it is their decision to actively make contact with a person who married out for the express purpose of trying to bring them back.
Again, that's their decision and it's fine with me if they want to do that as part of their choice to work in Kiruv.
however as I wrote, I don't work in kiruv, I'm not trained in it and I wouldn't want to expose my children to it until they are adults. And if they aren't working in kiruv which they are definitely not, then why would they want to make contact with some distant cousin who is so far away from religion and anything else that they married out, send their children to some church school, have an Xmas tree etc.
You are talking I think, about tinokot shenishbu.
As I wrote I am talking about cutting off a child who makes a conscious choice, knowing torah values and having been brought up with them, to turn his back on them and marry a non Jew and raise his children as non jews becasuse that is what they will be. That's not tinok shenishba, he doesn't need kiruv and he knows where to go and what to do if he decides to come back to yiddishkeit.
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Isramom8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 8:23 am
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Fine, I "work in kiruv". (We never describe ourselves this way!)
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saw50st8
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 9:06 am
FS, if you are not hurt by your kids making it difficult to have a real relationship with your grandchild, then you probably should be.
I reread your post 3 times. And you are still wrong. It was extremely important to my mother that I dress well on Shabbos. She used to buy me beautiful Jessica McLintock dresses for Friday night and Shabbos. We all got dressed up fancy. It went along with setting the table with fine china and silver and crystal and having beautiful food. But, my mother also recognized that she could play the “It goes against my values how dare you spit on me” and I would toe the line until I was 18 and be gone, or she could work on maintaining our relationship in a way that we could have a wonderful shabbos together even if I wasn’t dressed in the way she wanted. And she is a wonderful mother for putting aside her wants for what I needed at that time. That’s part of parenting – putting aside your own selfish views of what things “should be” and dealing with how “they are.” But if you view it as being spit on, then you aren’t going to be able to maintain a relationship with your kids.
I hope my kids never feel that the family home is “my” home and view it as our family home – a home with rules and responsibilities, where we can discuss our own personal needs amidst the family needs. DH and I may be the President, but we are not dictators. Chas v’shalom my kids should feel that way!
As to marrying out – it has nothing to do with libido. Why should someone restrict their choices to Jewish people if they don’t believe in the religion or its tenets?
I have some family that married out. My mother’s first cousin (who went to Yeshiva Day school), met a nice man, fell in love with him and moved in with him. What a shanda! He was “black” (actually Dominican, but pretty dark skinned) and they LIVED TOGETHER BEFORE THEY GOT MARRIED. This was in the 1970s. It was a HUGE scandal, surpassed only in their community by the daughter who killed her father. Her parents shunned her and her husband (they did get married).
Do you know what happened? The cousin built a beautiful life with her husband and had wonderful kids. They had plenty of support from his family (Christian and not particularly happy about it, but accepted their union anyway). They had friends. They bought a house and raised their kids.
What happened to her parents? They lost out on years of knowing their grandchildren and spending time and bonding. About 20 years or so after they first got together, her parents rekindled their relationship. Why? Because ultimately, cutting her off did no good. It’s a form of emotional blackmail.
I got to know her kids who are great people – one of them eventually became Orthodox, 2 have zero interest in Judaism except for basic holiday celebrations.
What I took away from all this as a child – your family loves you. And they should not cut off anyone because it doesn’t do anyone good. Everyone loses out, but if I would cut off my kids, I would lose out the most.
Nowadays, religion is not necessary for living. In the past, your religion defined where you could live, what jobs you could have, what types of persecution you received. Nowadays, religion doesn’t do that. You can live anywhere and do anything. Religion has to be a choice, not blackmail. Chinuch only goes so far.
I chose to remain Orthodox and marry an Orthodox man. I chose religion and to raise my children that way. I want them to choose it too, and I will absolutely stress its importance. But I would never cut off my kids for them choosing something I think is wrong, even if it’s against my moral compass. No, I wouldn’t accept a murderer, but we aren’t talking about extremes, we are talking about the normal changes within a life.
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Inspired
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 9:38 am
When a Jewish woman has a child with a non jew that child is 100% jewish.
Cutting off that family means those jewish children have no exposure to judaism and they will be less likely to become at all religiously observant later.
People whose family don't cut them off are more likely, IME to come back, even after marrying a non jew. The spouse can convert and become fully mitzva oberservant, they can get divorced. I have seen both happen.
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happybeingamom
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Thu, Dec 20 2012, 10:28 am
I agree with everything freidasima said in this thread and some were absolutely beautiful about hashkafa, emunah and bitachon.
A parent has the right to have values and does not have to give up their values because their child wants different.
There are red lines in my family, intermarriage and flaunting immoral behavior.
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