I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:01 pm

Sequoia and others, I was brought up european and well know about house clothes versus outside clothes.
Same about removing outside dirty shoes and putting on house shoes which we all do till today. But shabbos requires special shabbos house clothes which are fancy and pretty while still comfortable, at least for women as we are the ones doing most of the kitchen stuff and can get dirty etc.

Green forgive me, I certainly did not mean to write anything hurtful.

What I meant was gendered. A woman can have a lovely shabbos house robe which can be really beautiful. Totally comfortable, something she would never wear in the street yet elegant enough that it is special for shabbos and not her usual housecoat.
For a man, unless we are talking about a special comfortable house bekishe, ere really is no equivalent that doest look shlumpy. That is what I meant. A man has to wear something special for shabbos as well.
All of you who are talking about pyjamas to the shabbos table, if you arent wearing anything different , special for shabbos but your usual sleep attire then obviously it does not mean something to you culturally to wear something different to mark that it is shabbos. That, as I learned it, is not what is supposed to be unless one is just too poor to have another set of clothing for shabbos! The fact that people have chosen a more relaxed mode of dress or to wear house clothing is fine, but if those are the exact same house garments as they wear on weekdays that is, if they can afford different and more special pnes for shabbos, defeating the concept of making shabbos special in every way.

Obviously this coming to the table in weekday sweats is not the norm otherwise people
would not be writing about it as an issue, right? Whatever it is I agree that everyone has to find the style that works for them, whether in clothes or parenting. The problems begin when they dont think it is working for them too well...as some are writing here or saying between the lines.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:11 pm

Chani you ask about tevye where it got him to cut off chava his daughter who married out.
It scared the beejuz out of his other unmarried daughters that if they would follow suit they would lose their parents. That in some societies is a deterrent. And for some parents, it is no comfort to be in a relationship with children who marry our or grandchildren who go to catholic school and learn that the Jews killed the Yoshkeleh. Remember this was not a world of Athiests, chava was not going from a good jewish family to nice ecumenicalism, she was moving into a religious orthodox pravoslavian world, right? That is a very very different story.

But on top of everything else if one is brought up from childhood knowing that if one crosses that red line one can lose everything, ones parents, ones siblings, ones community, and that they will just cut one off, then if you were brought up with this since age zilch it is a norm abd one doesnt get into that situation usually to date a non jew in the first place where it could happen. You cant just say it to a teen for the first time when they reach dating age.

The name of the game is to preserve the jewish people. To keep yiddishkeit in any form. If one marries out and has non jewish children, specifically men marrying out, that is a serious issue as their children to be jewish have to convert and how many will do that? Good chance that family will be lost to judaism.
The minute the message to children os that no matter what they do you will accept their behavior where is the teaching and guiding that a parent should do if there are no sanctions involved? Life doesnt only work that way or there would be no need for policemen!

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:29 pm

freidasima wrote:

We teach, teach, teach when they are young, and then we support, encourage, and let go, when they get older.

You and I have both said that if you have a good relationship with your kids, they are less likely to stray so far (unless the young adult rejects religion from an intellectual perspective.) So I am saying that I think the best thing one can do to ensure a good relationship, is to not threaten or scare or exert power and control based on religious beliefs, but instead, choose your red lines very carefully.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:30 pm

I happen to have a relative who is a very special woman (married to a special man as well).
She has some children that "went off" at points in time.
I was there once with her children when she was yet to arrive.
A couple of hours before she got to where we where her son who was "off" at the time, took off his chains, his earings and put on a kipah.
My DH asked him, Why?
He looked at him and said.
"What do you mean Ima is coming, I can't let her see me like that it will break her heart".
All this womans children, even the ones who were "off" always had "Derech Eretz" for their parents and always were respectful to others.
In fact the entire family is in awe of the fact that this womans children always were Ba'alei Middos.
No matter what "stage" they were going threw.
And after leaving that gathering my DH told me.
"that is parenting"
Sometimes a child will have issues with religion or with the rules of religion or teen hormones (I.e the YH of youth) will get the better of them.
But if there is no "mental" issues then the child should be able to treat his parents, his sibling, and his home with respect.
And if they don't the problem is not with the religion.
The question is why does the child care so little about breaking their parents heart?
Destroying his siblings home?
Ruining the work his Mother puts into keeping a clean and neat home?
Raising a child to care about his parents feelings, his siblings feelings, to be courteaus of those around them, respectful of those around them as well as themselves enough to dress properly when going to a black tie event ought not be a part of "religion" and it ought not be about choosing "religion" over them.
It's about a requirment one be normal and be a Mench and have a drop of gratitude towards their parents who did so much for them.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:39 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Right, because it's raising your child to be so emotionally healthy teaching the child to base his or her choices on pandering to Mother's co-dependent guilt tactics. Not!

How is it emotionally unhealthy to change into clothing that your parent will find appropriate and respectful? It's not like he decided not to go into a career he loved because his mother threatened suicide over it. He made a relatively minor gesture, that had no long-term impact on his lifestyle, to please her.

eta - it's not like most secular kids who go to clubs wear their "club clothes" around their parents, either. Deciding that there are some things you don't need to share with mom and dad is part of growing up. I think it shows maturity when the decision to share or not is about the other person's feelings, rather than your own.

Last edited by ora_43 on Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

This, this, this!! And tell me, do you think she accomplished this with her child because she threatened and had the attitude of "my house, my way"? I think not.

I don't think this is about codependency, Isramom8, because it is healthy to think about one's affect on those we love.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:44 pm

I guess what bothers me about some arguments here is that it seems like they could be applied to literally any expectations. There must be something that it's OK to expect people in the same home will or won't do. There must be some ways in which parents exert control over their teens' choices - otherwise the kids may as well move out at age 14.

It doesn't have to be about sleeve length or kippah wearing (in fact IMO it's better that it not be), but what about expecting that kids will stay in school and get a certain minimum grade, or will volunteer in the community, or will behave respectfully when in shul or in a restaurant or visiting elderly relatives? Are those not all reasonable things?

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:14 am

ora_43 wrote:

I exert control when someone is abusive to others. I teach against rudeness. I encourage middos tovos.

The first time I left home was at age 14! IMO, parents should be there for their teens, not try to control them, not ignore them, and instead, get to know them.

I dropped out of school at the beginning of 9th grade! My parents had taught me their expectations and values while I was growing up. When I became a teen, the things I did that were good for me, I did because I began to adopt those values as my own, because they made sense to me, not because anyone forced me to.

OTOH, my brother finished HS because mom bribed/paid him to. Mom got what she wanted, I suppose, but what did my brother get out of it? Maybe we should just bribe our kids to wear high necklines and kippas??

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:22 am

Actually chani, in your brother's case he earned a HS diploma, which is a big thing. It's not something that can ever be taken away from him/change. In cases like that, I do think sometimes coercion/bribing/forcing MIGHT be necessary. Not for your normal teen, but in a few cases, it might just do the job.

In general though, I am not for coercion. IME by the time kids are teens, at least teens in modern society, they need some space and kavod to make their own decisions. Of course you try to guide them, and hope everything you've taught them has some effect. But forcing and coercing usually backfires.
You can tell a teen, you aren't coming to the table in your pjs. So he doesn't come. He eats cereal later on, he isn't crazy about shabbat food anyway or will happily skip it to make a point. Or he comes in shabbat clothes but seethes with resentment.
Or you wear your nice shabbat clothes, accept him as he is, tell him you'd much rather see him dressed up, but not make a big deal out of it.
I think option 3 is best.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:24 am

Isramom8 wrote:

If my kids are doing things for me, and not for their personal relationship with Hashem and themselves, I missed the mark in educating them. My child wants to do something for me? Okay, bring me a cup of water. Don't dress in a costume for me.

Isramom, I can't even wrap my head around this one.

Don't you think people do things for the people they love because they love them and want them to be happy? Does your dh ever bring you a gift? I hope he only does so when it says to in the Shulchan Aruch (like for YT) as part of his personal relationship with Hashem, and not because he wants to make you happy. Rolling Eyes

This isn't about being someone else, it's about acting with love and respect to the people we love because we don't want to hurt them. On a higher and more mature level it's about being concerned not to hurt any other Jew by not doing things they find offensive around them (for example, pulling out a steak at your vegetarian friend's home) unless it's a matter of halacha when you have no choice.

I would think I missed the mark in educating my children if they were so self-centered that their whole lives circled around what they wanted.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:33 am

Chani8, I don't understand. Are you proposing that parenting stops when a kid hits 13?
Parenting never stops. I'm still very much a parent to my 23yo. I still tell him what to do only it's couched differently "I think you're making a mistake" or "what does your Mashpia say".
Parenting changes as kids grow but it never stops.
My kids have no problems with house rules (except no chometz upstairs Smile

)
Do they have a need to exert their independence as teens? Sure, but within boundaries & our bar is very high.
Do we force Yiddishkeit down their throat? Absolutely not, it's our life, that's how we live it. Learning Torah is a major part of that.

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:02 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

I really don't parent my 19 year old at all. I'm there for her. I listen. I give my opinions when she asks for them. I share my hashkafa. And I am not afraid to disagree with her. But I see her totally as an adult, and can't imagine 'parenting' her anymore. Or, maybe this is what parenting an adult child is?

↑ shalhevet ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:03 am

Isramom8 wrote:

One second, are you the same Isramom8 who is offended that friends/ acquaintances didn't want to 'dress in a costume' for you and stay somewhere they preferred not to stay, just to do something for you?

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:33 am

I don't think parenting stops at 13, but I think you need to carefully pick and choose your battles as your kids get older. Me being comfortable was very important to me.

I was a very well behaved kid. I was open and honest with my mother. She knew I was doing the right thing most of the time. And I fought her on this - after seeing how strongly I felt, she stopped fighting me.

If my family would only love me on condition that I married a Jewish guy, that's not really love.

culinaryk

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:39 am

Chani8 would you send your kids to a certain school that has rules and then not follow them? What would be the consequences? What if you son/daughter found a great job but there was a serious dress code (maybe the boy had to wear a kippa)? Would they take the job and listen to the rules? I am not sure why a house cant have rules. I do not think you have to ram religion down their throats and there choices are theirs to make, but while they are in your house they have to abide by your rules. I dont know how I would manage if my house didnt have rules. The main thing that I and my husband try to teach our children is derech eretz and to be a mentch. Those are our priorities. Without that I do not think they can function in society. To me derech eretz means listening to what we have to say and respecting it even if you disagree with it.