I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:44 pm

freidasima wrote:

Beautiful story sneakermom. But the additional point is that the survivor-father may not have liked rock music, however he didn't see it as going against his core values, it was just a nuisance.

And torah was his core value. Therefore he was willing to compromise on something that was not important to him but rather a nuisance, in order to get in the torah learning.

That would be like a family feeling that they were against sports for boys as a waste of time but they had a boy with a lot of energy and knew he had to let it out in order to sit and learn well. So they put up a basketball hoop and allowed him to go out and throw a half hour of baskets before he sat down to learn his daf. They didnt see sports as being a slap in their face, or against their values, but just a nuisance, and they were willing to close a blind eye to it in order to have him do the ikkar.

That is not like letting a kid go to the shabbos table dressed in what a parent thinks is a totally improper way just to get them to sit at a shabbos table, because the improper dress is a spit in the face to shabbos. So how exactly is such a child keeping shabbos (the parents ikkar) if the way they got that kid to the table was to allow him "not" to keep part of shabbos (which for this parent is a certain way of dress)?

Yes, it is (regarding the bolded). What are our nuisances? What are our core values? That's what we need to revisit and revise when we have teenagers. My core value is my relationship with my children, for the sake of (and not in opposition to) my serving Hashem.

↑ grin

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:46 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Shalhevet, I probably took too many liberties on this thread to discuss special needs. But I think it's connected to the topic. If a teen is rebelling, he or she has a "special need" that has to be addressed respectfully. Insisting on conforming isn't fully seeing the child. That may be eaiser for the parents in the short run, but have detrimental effects in the long run.

The distinctions being made about teens with special needs versus "normal teens" may not really exist, except in degree. Every child deserves to be acknowledged at the level he or she is at.

I've always felt that way about "normal".little by little they're coming up with so many designations that soon everyone will have a label - and you know what? it may not be a bad thing for everyone to realize that they're deficient in one area and excel in another - and that is "normalcy".

↑ greenfire ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 3:52 pm

sequoia wrote:

This is interesting.

For me, if we are at home without guests, we are in pjs. So naturally I don't get this whole "fighting with teens who wear sweatpants" thing. We would also be in sweatpants.

If there are guests? As long as no one is parading around in their underwear, it's okay.

Families have different ways of doing things.

hey we also do friday night in pj's ... FUN !!!
[the times for shabbos robes ended a long long time ago - maybe when they became more expensive than clothing]

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 4:14 pm

You see, in my book friday nite is not supposed to be first and foremost "fun".
It's supposed to be kedushas hashabbos.
This "fun" is overrated.
Satisfaction. A sense of doing something right. "fun" in the sense of coming to the table in PJs on friday night? Green, you are a single mother. Do you think it would be shabbosdig for a husband to come home from shul, take off his suit, put on pjs and come to the table on friday night to make kiddush that way? With a wife in pyjamas and children in nightgown and pyjamas?

Gevalt.

Where is the sense of kedushas hashabbos? Where are the special clothes, or the special expensive and beautiful shabbos robes that are like gowns that women wear to honor the shabbos? All week long we buy everything good and special and put it away for shabbos. Parents who limit kids eating sweet dairy, once a week they buy a ma'adan or a pudding for shabbos morning. People who don't have cake, once a week have a small cake lekuvid shabbos. Yosif Mokir hashabbos was our example. If we see a beautiful fruit we buy it...and put it away for shabbos.

That's the atmosphere in many families. And in such families to come to the shabbos table in pyjamas unless someone is deathly ill and come just to hear kiddush and drag themselves back to be sick in bed? Not done. And if in such a family someone wants to do it? It's a slap int he face.

Depends on the family.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 4:35 pm

It is my long held belief that if a child has no respect for parents it extends into no respect for Hashem & his rules.
Comfortable? Sorry , there's no reason why my child needs to be more comfortable than me. It's my house, my rules.
My teens know my boundaries & don't cross them. We have a great relationship & these issues hardly ever come up.
However, we did ensure that their peers would be inline with our hashkafos by sending them to the appropriate schools.
Yes teens can & do tax you.

↑ greenfire ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:07 pm

freidasima wrote:

wow - judgment to the core !!!

I shouldn't even respond ... but yes I would love a husband who would slip into his pj's for kiddush just cause the rest of us are wearing them - FUN vs backside retentive sounds like a dream ... I save my nice clothing for shul ... buying expensive shabbos robes are rubbish & wasteful of monies ... I treat shabbos with loads of respect ... set the table in china - cook & shop for glorious food just like yosef mokir shabbos & when I make franks in blanks they get served on china as well - make a variety on different weeks so that nobody is bored to death of chicken & kugel ...

throughout the years I've morphed for my own personal reasons & I am accepting of myself

don't slap me in the face because I am different than you - ouch !!!

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:24 pm

Just FTR, I just want to say that I was not a permissive parent, and had very strong boundaries, as a charedi. These two kids were not rebelling. I had them under my thumb. And even now, I don't see that what they are doing is purposely trying to hurt me. They are not trying to spit in my face. They don't mean to cause me pain or offend me.

So why was it hurting me? Why was I being offended?? Because I had these beliefs stuck in my head, that there is "halacha". And halacha is halacha. And my way is the right way. And I had a habit of thinking, "my house, my home, my rules." But I realized these two issues, halacha and control, were hurting me and my relationship with my kids.

Imo, if I want to keep a very religious home, if I want to hold by certain halachot, then great, that is my business. But really, I have to stop pushing my beliefs onto my teens. They want to figure out where they hold, all by themselves.

This thread reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof. A lot. Wow. I think I've got to watch it again (it's been years). But let's think about it. Does Tevya win? Or does he lose? What does he lose by bending for his children. Imo, he is choosing his children over his religious beliefs. What does he gain from it? What does he lose?

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:36 pm

chani8 wrote:

What does he loose? His daughter marries out! Heck that's plenty.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:48 pm

Many rabbanim don't see our generation as a Fiddler on the Roof generation. At one time, a child choosing to go off the derech was already lost forever. Nowadays, people are more fickle. With a warm connection from family, kids can and do come back.

Tevye needed to be strict in guarding the tradition, because he was the only one in the children's lives doing it. There was only Anatevka. Now there's the whole wide world, Chabad and kiruv is all over, there are all kinds of programs and media and organizations and ways for kids to be exposed and re-exposed to Yiddishkeit in a positive way. Writing them off as dead, or saying "get out of my house, there is no other way", is unnecessary overkill that we can't afford in the larger context of opportunities for positive influence. Because in our times, things change fast. So there's more hope.

↑ greenfire ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:05 pm

sequoia wrote:

I am with you all the way greenie!!!

FS.... For heaven's sake.... It's cultural... Russian families don't wear outdoor clothes at home unless we are giving a dinner party with guests. Nothing to do with not following the Torah or not honoring the Sabbath. Why expect everyone to be like you?

I'm not russian ~ didn't you read my other thread ... I'm a mutt anybody who bothers to judge me can kiss my mocha @$$ !!!

↑ sequoia ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:12 pm

greenfire wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I'm not russian ~ didn't you read my other thread ... I'm a mutt anybody who bothers to judge me can kiss my mocha @$$ !!!

Oh I know you are not! But I was addressing FS regarding my own specific context.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:54 pm

Oh it bothered my mother that I wanted to wear pajamas. And she tried many ways to get me to wear nicer clothing (this was once I hit teenage years) and to wear shoes to the table. It was very important to her. She could have absolutely put her foot down, but she recognized doing so would mean I wouldn't come to the Shabbos table. What kind of shabbos atmosphere is that?

I am very close to my mother. If she had pressed the issue, we would not have been able to maintain a close relationship. I saw many of my friend's relationships break down with their parents because their parents asserted their right to control over their child's desires and choices.

When you say

Quote:

Parents have no chiyuv to honor or respect their children. They have to educate them. Hopefully they love them. Hopefully they pass on their values. But educating also means teaching children not to spit on a parent's values in that parent's face.

That makes me understand how awful your parenting philosophy is. Its so awful I'm having trouble formulating my sentence about this.

Your kids are human beings with their own feelings and rights. Yes, as their parent you can trample on their feelings and ignore them. You can force feed your philosophy and desires and suffocate them until they are forced to leave their home. But that's not called educating your children.

I'm not a permissive parent. My mother had plenty of rules. And I followed them and respected her and loved her. But not everything that was important to her was important to me.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 7:00 pm

freidasima wrote:

I find this so offensive. So if there is no man around, then it doesn't matter right? There is no kedushas shabbos without a man coming home from shul? Ugh.

My husband doesn't agree with my philosophy. He wears his suit, I wear my pajamas. Thats ok too. But maybe that's because many of us aren't as shallow.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 7:02 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

chani8 wrote:

This thread reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof. A lot. Wow. I think I've got to watch it again (it's been years). But let's think about it. Does Tevya win? Or does he lose? What does he lose by bending for his children. Imo, he is choosing his children over his religious beliefs. What does he gain from it? What does he lose?

What does he loose? His daughter marries out! Heck that's plenty.

His daughter would marry out anyway.

I would rather maintain a relationship with my child, even if they are totally OTD and married to a non-Jew. Otherwise, I lose them completely. What does that solve? And also just shows them that your love is conditional on their observance. No thanks.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 8:34 pm

sequoia wrote:

What? I'm trying to recall occasions where we all walked around in pajamas because there were no guests. I can remember only some Sunday mornings my mother wore a robe. I have no idea why you think Russians don't wear outdoor clothing unless it's a dinner party. What?

↑ sequoia ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:14 am

marina wrote:

sequoia wrote:

You didn't have "home clothes"? In my family and in all my friends' families everyone changes into home clothed/pjs when they get home.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 12:34 am

marina wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Same here. In fact I only learned about housecoats when I became frum. I still don't wear them unless its early morning or bedtime.
No one in my extended family wore PJ's.
But then again I've been out of the society for over 30 years..

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:58 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

chani8 wrote:

What does he loose? His daughter marries out! Heck that's plenty.

But there were several other DD's who tested his religious beliefs. And he bent for them. And he benefitted from bending for them. True, one DD married out. Regarding her, he said, this is my red line. And he put his religious beliefs above his relationship with her. And what did it change? What good did it do? He got to make his point, get his way, "his house, his rules'.

So I'm saying on this thread, that I've decided that I will bend, too. Standing up for my religious beliefs is just not worth more to me than my kids. And that means my red lines are not going to be religious based.