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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 8:38 am

There's a lot of naivitee on this thread blaming challenged kids on their parents' bad parenting. If all the kids in a family are dysfunctional, I can see the possibility of an opening to begin to judge the parents as ineffective, although you might be wrong there too.

But if the siblings are functional and even excell socially, academically and as role models to their peers, it gets harder to assume that the parents have wrong hashkafos and don't know how to parent.

The rare people who get it are other parents in similar situations.

Just saying.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 8:50 am

Isramom8 wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more.
I think people should be less sanctimoneous about how special kids who are acting out must be lacking boundaries at home. It's really one of those cases when you can't judge till you've been there, and no two special needs are the same.
IME many, many special needs kids thrive with more love and flexibility and less strict boundaries.

My son has some vague special needs. If I enforced all my old ideals about parenting with him, he'd be on the streets. I forgive him again and again.
In our family the siblings all turned out b'h very functional and amazing. But even if they didn't, you can't judge the parenting of a special needs kids by the siblings. The very fact there's a special needs kid in the family affects them in so many ways. If the special needs kid is aggressive or often nasty, it's not easy for them at all.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:10 am

Isramom and amother, you are both right. No one is blaming parents for having challenging or special needs children, no one is saying it happened because there were no boundaries. Just the opposite. It happened because that's how their brain was wired or unwired by Hashem. Period. The question is now what one does with it.

It very much depends on the child, on the level of challenging or special needs and of that child's understanding. Obviously the red lines have to be very few, very well understood and very well policed. Very very very few red lines in fact under such circumstances. It's a serious problem and there are excellent therapists who specialize in such children and such situations and again, it has nothing to do with religion but it is a problem in general. These kids pushing the limits on their religious observance is only a very small part of the issues that such parents face.

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:20 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

Chani8, what would happen if you'd tell DD - no cleavage in my house or DS - in my house you wear a kippa?
.

Just FTR, my DD does not show her cleavage, B"H. But her idea of a kosher neckline is different than mine. So in the past, she would respond to my comment about her neckline with, "This is what my Rav allows." To which I would have said something like,"I don't care what he says, he's wrong and what does he know about necklines? It's too low and doesn't look nice. You know what is tznius." To which she would say, "No, I don't know what's right anymore. My Rav allows me to wear this. What do you want from me?" And I would say, "I bet if we went to him and showed him your neckline, he'd agree it was not what he meant. And if he does think it's ok, I'll set him straight. It is the women who determine what is tznius! We are Daas Yehudis!"

If I told my son that "in my house, you wear a kippa," he would chuckle and then reassure me that it really is ok for him not to wear a kippa, esp not in the house. And FTR, he does wear a kippa for davening/brachot/bentching. If I got hysterical and insisted that "in my house, you will wear a kippa!", he would ask me why am I so upset at him. If I still insisted, then he would get upset and say, "Isn't this my house, too? I also live here, and I have a right to be comfortable." And I suppose I could insist and coerce and punish, and then he'd either try to argue with me, or try to avoid me, all while thinking I care about my fanatical religious beliefs more than him.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:27 am

No, there are not excellent therapists. Just in our experience, nothing personal.

↑ greenfire ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:29 am

there are people here blaming bad parenting ...

all the degrees in the world doesn't necessarily make any of you better parents - nor does all the high-holiness - not to mention intolerance of these children and their families ...

are at-risk, off the derech, and mentally challenged kids the same ... probably not ... nonetheless there are situations where one thing can lead to another

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:38 am

Isramom they exist but one needs a lot of siata dishmaya and good luck to find the right one for the right kid.

Green, you are right that many situations lead to each other, and the problem is that many situations which aren't identified at a very young age spiral out of control. Having or not having degrees doesn't make a difference, but someone with a lot of successful professional experience with children at risk can often give some good advice to parents dealing with such a situation. A parent then takes that advice and tries to apply what she can to her particular situation. Even if it helps with only one issue, that's one issue less to deal with.

Ruchel if my neighbor comes in with such cleavage and is borrowing sugar I give her the sugar and that's that. If she comes for a visit I will suck it up the first time and if I think she isn't the kind who will take kindly to being asked to cover up more when she comes to my house I will try to limit it to only when the girls and myself are here.

First, the athiest cousin business wouldn't happen as I tell Jewish dinner guests in advance in a lovely way that we have a whole household full of headgear, from baseball caps to bukharian kippas that they can choose from but we would appreciate their covering their head at our house while eating the meal, and I explain why and what brochos and benching are all about. If they would refuse out of principle to put on a kippa and they were there already, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, I would serve them and not mention it and you can be sure that they would NEVER be invited again.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:41 am

Why do people assume that my challenged child is off the derech? My child is not, and never was, off the derech. My child has no desire to be off the derech. Is OTD the only classification people understand?

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:43 am

FS, let me clarify: We have never met a therapist who could handle our situation any better than we can.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:43 am

OTD doesn't mean challenged and a challenged child is certainly not automatically OTD.
What happened is that this thread evolved from the issue of limits and children who push the envelope in the question of religion to children who do so and happen to also be challenged or special needs. Hence the problem of parental response is different and the issue of how to deal with those children is more complex. That's all.

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:48 am

freidasima wrote:

If a kid doesnt' want to keep shabbos, also depends on whether it is peer pressure, stam a trying out of their wings, or an intellectual decision. If it is the first or second, one has a good chance of it blowing over after teenage years pass, if it is the third, most likely that child will become secular. But one usually doesn't have the real behavioral problems with the third kind, they are usually willing to do their thing in private while toeing the line in public, especially if one explains to them that it will only be another two, three, etc. years that they will be living at home, and at 18 when they go to college (in EY, army, etc.) they won't be under their parents' roof full time and can live the life they want and meanwhile, please honor their parents by toeing the line in public.

The problem is with first two groups. There again one needs compromises with them and to try and give them a belief in themselves, their own choices for what is good for them and remind them that their peers won't necessarily be around in another year or two and then will they be influenced by other peers? Maybe it's time for them to think what is good for them and why without connection to what other people - including parents - think. To talk it out with them, to validate their feelings if they make sense but to explain that people live in society and that in society there are rules, right now they are in their parents home and parents society and have to live by their rules etc. and soon enough they will live their own lives, that you are parents won't cut with them if they are living a different kind of life than what you would have wanted, it doesn't mean you will be happy about it or support it financially, but you will continue to love them and be there for them as parents.

I don't see the value in the bolded sentences here. Why should it be an honor to me how my child looks in public? If he has long hair and no kippah, should I be ashamed of him? I worry more about what kind of friends he is attracting, and which group he is attaching himself to, rather than my personal kavod.

Right, he is in my home. But I want my home to be comfortable for him. Just because I care about him. I know I am his parent. I have rules in my home. But I just don't see how this is derech eretz on my part, to be so demanding at the exclusion of his feelings/opinions.

↑ greenfire ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:53 am

toeing the line in public is called honoring your parents ...

that's warped if not controlling ...

once I had to hold back my daughter from hitting a woman [grandma of a girl in her class] with an umbrella because she took one look at my daughter's creative hair & asked if it was purim mockingly

I've stood in line behind a woman laughing & pointing at a teen with uniquely dyed hair ... oh does that make a person bad - the colour of their hair ... really ... I promptly said oh my daughter's hair looks just like that - it's loverly

I'm controlling myself here ... cause I want to tell you all where to go & it ain't to hell

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 10:56 am

Since this thread has taken on a tangent, I'm going to vent. This happened to me. A shadchanit said that a family wanted to understand why my challenged child was in the school the child is in. I explained about the challenges. The shadchanit said, in a low, "you can level with me" tone, "Is your child off the derech?" Um, no! Were you listening?

Anyway, B"H, our two children who have ever been in shidduchim have merited the most amazing shidduchim, with super-awesome parents. So there is hope. Very Happy

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:32 am

shalhevet wrote:

Why are they different? Maybe when you expect your children to keep halacha it is from righteous indignation, but when I expect my children to do so, it is because I believe it is the right way for a Jew to live their life. There is nothing wrong with people having norms in their homes which everyone is expected to keep - as I said that includes people who don't live there too. Nowhere in this thread has anyone discussed forcing a child in their late teens or above to keep halacha (I don't think anyone believes you can, anyway) - the only discussion is what behavior I expect from someone publicly in my home.

So, just like I expect (and would demand) that no one throws a noisy party at 3 in the morning because it makes me miserable/ uncomfortable in my own home, likewise I expect anyone in my home on Shabbos to (at least) outwardly keep Shabbos. I don't believe in spying on adult or near adult children. But I expect other people to have consideration for the person who bought and prepared their food and roof over their heads.

With little kids you can expect and demand all you want. But you just can't always do that with teens. And what you think is the right way for a Jew to live, if the teen doesn't agree, what can you do? And anyway, what are you accomplishing by pushing your agenda on them? Do you think they will feel respect for you and loved by you?

And just curious, when do you start treating them like adults? Only after they are married? What if they then don't want to keep your house rules when, as adults, they come visit? Would it come down to, my house, my rules, and if you can't handle that, stay away? Your own kids would not be welcome in your home?

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 11:39 am

If my mother had treated me the way some of you are advocating, I would barely speak to her today! BH we have an excellent relationship in spite of our differences.

Why does my mother's decorum desires trump my desire to be comfortable? Or follow my own life choices?

I would never just spill cola on my mother's couch, but I don't know why she would get to dictate personal things of mine. Especially once a child gets older.

Your kids are people - not just pawns. And they should get to make their own choices, especially when it doesn't really impact others. Its not like your child is cooking pork in your pots (that brings up issues of your action harming me, rather than just the individual).

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:10 pm

Chani and Green, that's not what I meant by "in public". I don't mean "waiting on line" and I don't mean "walking down the street".

I mean at a public function with the family in a place, a society, or a particular gathering where looking out of place will draw a lot of attention and cause people to unfortunately spread LH or at least gossip about the family and the parents. Or where looking out of place will make other people there uncomfortable.

We live in a society with certain rules, some societies have more social rules than others. Dress is one of them. There is a large gamut of dress that is acceptable in many Orthodox and even charedi socieities, but for example, a girl going to a religious function in a pair of shorts is not one of them. Not even in modern orthodox society today. Therefore it will bother a parent to go to such a function in public with a child not dressed according to that society's rules, it's not derekh eretz for the child to go as such, period. Has to do with good manners, not with religion.

chani, your example of a son who doesn't want to wear a kippa in the house. Did you ask him why he doesn't want to wear one? Yes, he is correct halochically but he is also making a statement. Today, a religious male in the state of Israel who doesn't wear a kippa on a regular basis and not only for religious acts is making a statement. Is that the statement that he wants to make? That he is not religious but only "traditional"? And if so, why does he want to make that statement? And if in your house it bothers you that he doesn't wear a kippa all the time, why doesn't he want to please you and instead do something that bothers you? Is that his way of pushing the envelope? What does he get out of it?

As for your daughter wearing a top you think is not modest, why do you feel that you don't have the right to make rules in your home? Is it because you aren't sure these rules are correct? Because if you do, then you as a mother have every right to set the boundaries you want in your own home. Do you set boundaries in anything? I assume you do. I assume for example that you wouldn't let one of your kids walk around the house bottomless after age two or so, right? Why is that? Because you are trying to socialize them right? Because children, teens and adults always wear something on their bottom. And why is that? Because it's a form of modesty that is the only form accepted across the board in western society (and eastern and northers and southern as far as I know).

So...if you believe that chest modesty includes wearing a certain type of closure at the neckline and not another, and you truly believe in that, why do you want to let your daughters walk around in front of you with a neckline you don't consider modest.....unless you really aren't sure that you are 100% correct? Or, if you accept the "if there is any rov somewhere who says this is ok, then I'm ok with it....which is fine also, then why did you mention the neckline issue as an "issue" at all?

Looks to me like you have to clarify your own attitude towards something before you can set boundaries or guidelines for your children about it...and also sounds as if your children are the ones who are guiding you and your decision about what is correct and not correct in religious observance more than you are guiding them...or at least that's the impression I am getting from your posts, please correct me if I am wrong...

imasinger

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:18 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

UN believable. What did she think you would say? "Yes, I'm going to offer my SN kid as a korban and let him get kicked out of "normal" schools just so he can look good on paper for my other kids to get shidduchim."

B"H you have proven that attitude wrong twice.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:31 pm

Also, as Shal wrote, americans seem to often have this attitude that parents and children are equal dwellers in a home. In my book and in that of many, they are not. Even adult children. As long as it is YOUR roof, and you and your husband are the heads of the household or single mothers then it's just you, well then it is YOUR roof and you make the rules. YOUR comfort comes first, YOUR decisions are law and anyone else in that house has to dance to your tune.

It's the way of the world. Your kids aren't your roommates, they aren't your friends. They are your kids. This is YOUR house and you are supposed to be comfortable there first and foremost. Only after that comes everyone else and if you are uncomfortable with something they are doing, well then they have to change what they are doing to keep it for being uncomfortable for you. Nothing is forever. If they are kids they will grow up and move out. If they are really uncomfortable they will look to move out as fast as they can. Then they will have their own place where they can do exactly what they want when they want...unless of course they share with roommates and will have to compromise about many things to live in peace...unless of course they get married and have to compromise with a spouse in order to live in peace.

These is a small window of opportunity when people, if things go right, can make the rules. Firs they are in their parents house, and eventually they are either in an old age home, in their children's house, or in their own place, pretty incapacitated with the full time aide making the rules. So enjoy while you can.

Now here are a few questions for those of you who can't get their minds wrapped around this concept.

1) For those who say they want their children to be comfortable in their home...if that means that YOU have to be uncomfortable and unhappy for your children to be comfortable, then what message are you giving your children? That they can do what they want, even if it hurts mommy a lot, because mommy wants them to be happy? Isn't that a kind of passive abuse of parents if a child knows that they are making a parent unhappy but continue to do it? Don't you think it teaches children a really bad message that states that in any situation no matter what THEIR comfort is more important than anything else? Is that the message you want to teach your kids? Don't you feel that you setting them up for future situations where they will act like this with people and get smacked across the face and not treated with kid gloves as you are doing, because the world is not about to treat them with kid gloves?

And if not..then maybe what your kids are doing really ISNT so uncomfortable for you at all...which is course if not what we are talking about. We aren't discussing arbitrary rules that a parent makes but something that they truly believe in.

2) Now would you feel that way about guests? After all, we want guests to feel comfortable at our home don't we? How far would we go allowing them to do something that we hate? Would we allow them to change a baby with a full diaper in the middle of the dining table with the food there because it's convenient for them and just doesn't bother them (but bothers you and other people?) Would we allow them to play loud music until midnight because they love loud music but we want to sleep however we want them to feel comfortable? Wouldn't we be thrilled when such guests finally leave and would never want them back? And if we say that we would have them back...well aren't we letting ourselves be abused then?

Saw you talk about "decorum". Do you feel that coming to the table in sweat pants or pyjamas on shabbos is only "decorum"? Maybe it's much more than that, maybe it's a whole way of life and belief that includes a certain way of dress to honor the shabbos queen. And maybe she believed that someone coming to the table in sweats is really spitting in the shabbos queen's face. That isn't decorum. It is menchlichkeit for a frum Jewish way of life that makes shabbos different than any other day and respects the kedusha of that day.

That's very different than "decorum". And yes, respecting the kedusha of shabbos trumps your comfort. The same way that my husband, in the throes of a serious stomach attack, asked me to give him a clean white shirt which he buttoned over his pyjama T shirt in order to come to the table on Friday night from bed to wash, make kiddush, eat the minimum challah to be yotzei, bench and go back to bed to writhe in pain. It was just him and me, he could have skpped it, he could have come to the table in the T shirt he had been sweating in in bed in pain, and even I was shocked. But as he said, he can't greet shabbos hamalka in a sweaty T shirt. It was SHABBOS.

The kids have seen him do this once or twice when he was very sick and they were around. It makes an impression. And if they do it, it isn't because of guilt or rules, but because of example. Most normal kids want to please their parents. If they are going through the stage where they don't, then one has to remind them gently of certain rules.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:39 pm

Special needs kids are not caused by poor parenting. I don't think anyone thinks that.

But special needs kids will often act out more and be more difficult when the parents' disciplinary skills are lacking. It's really not a surprising concept. Special needs kids, like all other ones, need to eat and drink and be loved and... be disciplined and have strict boundaries. Otherwise, their behavior can easily spiral even more out of control.

And lets not assume that posters who disagree with you have no experience with special needs kids and are talking out of their ***.

↑ chani8 ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:43 pm

FS, I really don't see why it is a problem to me, if my teen (aka young adult) would dress inappropriately at a social function. Personally, I don't take their lack of social skills, or their rejection of societal norms, as a reflection on me. If they want to pooh pooh on their community, even, by wearing shorts to a wedding, then how is that my problem? Why should I be hurt by it? Why should I get involved in any way? IMO, your way is buying into social pressure and using 'manners' (some use halacha) to control the teen.

As far as my teens go, I don't feel like you understood my post.

I haven't asked my son why he is doing what he is doing, because I don't want to know why. I have no desire to challenge him. I am not likely to influence him at this stage in his life. Right now, he is likely trying out being traditional. I'm not interested in convincing him that he is wrong. While I believe my way is best for me, maybe being traditional is best for him. However, I could indeed manipulate my son to get him to wear a kippah in my home. I do have power over him. He loves and respects me, and wants a good relationship. I could exploit that to get him to wear a kippah. But, what would I have accomplished? Why should I care if he wears a kippah, for me, when he doesn't believe in it????

As far as my DD, I used to demand she change before she went out, or if it really bugged me, even when she was in my home. Of course I think I am 100% correct. But who cares. So what if she is wrong. What if she is breaking halacha??? Do I fight with her, destroy our relationship, irritate and annoy and frustrate her? What am I accomplishing toward my long term goal??? You know what my long term goal is? To have a good loving relationship with my DD. No matter her neckline. And if my harping on her about anything, neclines or doing the dishes, is going to cause he to turn away from me, hate me, then forget it. And just FTR, when I stopped caring about her necklines, she hasn't improved them, but she has started doing the dishes (without being asked) every time she's home. And I get a kiss and hug, too.

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