I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:11 pm

Freidasima wrote: "If my kid would spill cola on the sofa deliberately and make noise deliberately at 3 AM they would have been shipped out of here toute suite to a dorm or someplace else."

Yofi. Very nice. And till you find an appropriate placement? And till you work out the arrangements? And till you get your child to agree to stay there and not endanger himself or herself by leaving to who knows where?

I think this thread has become about the difference between those of us who have learned that teens can spiral out of our ability to control, and those who still have the luxury of theories. No offense meant to anyone.

But it still has nothing to do with choosing religion over teens or teens over religion.

Last edited by Isramom8 on Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ greenfire ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:11 pm

she's choosing her kids over their religion NOT her own - by not cramming it down their throat ... by NOT pushing them away if they are not the ideal religious value you have - you wished for your kids & their future

by being accepting you are allowing them to find spirituality on their own ... which is a different beast than religion

spirituality is where one relates to god ... that is solely between oneself & god

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:14 pm

greenfire wrote:

That still doesn't make sense.

You can't choose your children over your children's religious observance, because your children's religious observance isn't yours to choose. It's not like cramming it down their throat = religious child.

If anything, a more relaxed attitude is more likely to keep religious observance open as a viable option.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:15 pm

Yes, we really do arrive back at Hashem, when we see these nisyonos as coming from Hashem. It's all one avodah.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:25 pm

Notice that what I wrote has NOTHING to do with religion. It has to do with derekh eretz in general and a certain standard of behavior that is acceptable.

If you are talking about not special needs kids and you teach them from age zilch that there are rules and consequences, then you have to keep to those consequences. Such kids also understand that they can push to a point because otherwise they are going to be made to Pay those consequences and that is not going to be good for them, it may be horrible in fact. And thus, they toe the line. Eventually when they realize that your way is correct - and I do NOT mean religion - I mean a certain type of social behavior, manners, rules like people are responsible for their actions whatever they are, then they accept them out of understanding that it is the best way.

Guess what. I'm not talking about religion. I am talking about not spilling cola on the sofa, not making noise at 3 AM when there are people getting up to work in another three hours etc. It's called the process of human socialization. And they only way that people are NOT animals in truth is the fear of consequences.

Same in mitzvos. Yes yes we keep them out of ahavas Hashem etc. But in truth, for some at a certain point we really really really want to do somehting which is wrong and we don't do it out of fear of punishment. It's only when we get past that rebellion stage that we realize the truth in the right way. That's ahava.

Which...is why torah commands a child to FEAR his parents. That's YIRA. Ish Imo Veaviv Tirau. That's the mitzva and its wording and there is a reason. A good parent knows how to turn it into love as well as fear, but the fear has to be there during the stage of hormones and rebellion because at that particular stage LOVE doesn't come into the equation on their part. Ours yes, theirs, no.

This is going to be really hard for many of you to stomach but read it over and think because it's the torah's truth.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 3:50 pm

freidasima wrote:

And as for letting a 7 year old go to school without a coat...depends what else they are wearing. If the school clothes include a sweater, an undershirt, a shirt and a vest, well then some kids can cope fine walking to the corner to get on a heated school bus to go to their heated school and come home that way in 30 degree Farenheit weather.

If however that same kid has to walk a mile to school and back in the snow, it's really not advisable for obvious reasons. Parents of 7 year old kids have a responsibility for that child's physical welfare and exposure to such cold for a long time can land that kid in the hospital with something. And then what? When the services want to prosecute a parent what exactly should that parent say? "Dorothy didn't want to wear her coat and even though she is seven she knows her own mind so we let her walk a half hour in the snow in a shirt and undershirt?!"

Mine was the first scenario (sort of - I was not wearing an undershirt or sweater or vest...just a shirt). My mother isn't neglectful! I still go through the "Is it worth it to wear a coat, have to keep track of it, take it on off (hot bus, cold street)?" My mother recognized that I knew what I wanted.

I still go through the "does it pay to wear a coat?" everyday.

My mother had a few rules that I really fought her on - first was wearing shoes to the shabbos table (mandatory) and the second was no pajamas at the shabbos table. I have to admit she won those battles grudgingly until I was a late teen, and I still go barefoot and in pjs to the dinner table friday night (unless we have company). At the end of a long week, I want nothing to do with getting dressed.

Is that disrespectful to my mother? Honestly, it had nothing to do with my mother even though it was a power struggle. It had to do with me and my comfort.

ven

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 4:12 pm

We all plant the seeds and hope it will grow into something beautiful and meaningful, all we can do is support them as much as we can and believing that it will be good for them in the end.. the way we are brought op for sure leaves its marks in any case ..

↑ Merrymom

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 4:57 pm

freidasima wrote:

What I do believe is that today, teenagers get a lot of support from people - their peer group, the media, educators and psychologists - for the idea that "the young people run the world". And that makes them think that they can often get away with behavior that is totally antisocial and hurtful.

That has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with issues of maturity and pushing the pencil. The two don't go together. If someone is living under their parents' roof and living off them, in my book they aren't allowed to exhibit a certain type of uncaring, exhibitionist, or nasty behavior. That has nothing to do with religion, only with good manners.

If a girl wants to wear pants in general and her parents only believe in skirts, they have a right to say 1) it's your life but we don't believe in pants for girls and therefore we won't pay for them. If you want to use your babysitting money to buy pants, that's your business.

If pants on women are not acceptable in your society, if they are going to a public or religious function with you and are living under your roof, you still have every right to say "no way Jose", when you come with us you wear what is acceptable in our society, if you want to go to your pants wearing friends in pants, then that's your business and we won't comment.

That's just good manners.

Remember something else. When one has more than one child, then what one child does and how one responds to that child, teaches all the other children something. If one does not condone a certain behavior one has to be certain that the other children understand that and know it. That's what house rules are for. Otherwise there is a good chance that the other kids might very well go the way of that first one and the parent ends up losing all the children to their way of life. There is also a red line one has to draw somewhere and parents have the right to draw it wherever they want. Their house? Their right.

In my house there is no chillul shabbos. If a guest wants to come for shabbos, either they walk here or if they "could" actually walk here and don't inform me that they came a different way, that's their business. I will not however invite someone from a different city for a friday night dinner. My rules, my home, my right to do so. I won't let food with a hechsher I won't accept enter my house. If I have a secular Jewish man to friday night dinner I will offer a kippa at the begining of the meal. He can take it off the second the meal is over, but my anti-religious friends (and I have them, believe me) are easygoing enough to know and keep to (while laughing at) my house rules.

If I am about to lose my kid because he won't put on a kippa at the table because of house rules, then I haven't been too good at teaching him derekh eretz. He doesn't have to believe in it, he has to believe in ME and not want to tick me off. It's called good manners and respecting parents.

You have no idea how happy I am to read your post. I have this argument with friends and relatives and nobody seems to agree with me. My theory is because most of our parents were very strict, this generation's parents have decided to be all about love and nothing about discipline. I think this is a very bad way to raise kids, they need both. It's not just about them.

b from nj ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 5:10 pm

I don't have the patience to read all of the other comments above but I will say that I think it is VERY important for us parents to be sure to love our children UNCONDITIONALLY which can be very hard for those of us who have tried instilling Torah values in our children & have sacrificed a lot to give our kids good Jewish upbringings & education. I think it is a HUGE challenge to love our children when they seem to be rejecting the Torah life that we live & when they choose a life that is different than that which we have tried to teach them for so many years but I still believe (& have heard from many rabbis & educators) that it really is SO important for us frum parents to really work on loving our children unconditionally even though it is so difficult for many of us to do so. As my rabbi once said in a lecture on Chinuch Habanim, it's not fair to pressure our children to be "nachas machines". It's nice when they give us nachas but it really is NOT our childrens' obligation to do so (even though we parents certainly do appreciate it when they do give it to us!)

↑ greenfire ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 5:20 pm

Merrymom wrote:

that's all nice & dandy until you have a child that jumps out the window ... believe me you will want to tread carefully on eggshells

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:42 pm

Green we both know that a kid who jumps out the window and more is not your average rebellious teen. That's a kid with problems that need to be addressed, preferably by a professional or by a parent getting advice from a mental health professional specializing in that kind of teen.

That isn't what we are talking about here (or is it? Are we talking about kids changing a derekh, pushing limits, or about kids with serious emotional or mental problems who - among other things - are also rejecting parents' religious ways of life?).

And as for what you write Merrymom, it's that and more. It's a whole generation who became parents since the late 1960s and the flower generation that believe in a sort of relativism. Anything should go. Who aren't 100% certain that their derekh is the BEST one there is and who don't really believe that they have the "right" to force their children into their rules.

Also - love, and absolute love isn't identical with acceptance and absolute acceptance. One can totally love one's child's being, and totally despise and fear their actions. Loving them doesn't mean condoning or accepting their behavior, that's a mixup that a lot of people make.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:43 pm

Again I just have to chime in.
On these things I think that FS is really a breath of fresh air to sound cliche.
And While I personally am well to the right of FS in Halachic terms I think she is dead on when she says nothing she's written has anything to do with religoun.

And guess what?
A good part of parenting has absolutley nothing to do with religoum.
It has to do with raising children to be adults.
The greatest job of a parent, the most important job of a parent is to raise their child to be a functioning member of society capable of success, respectable.
In other words.
Normal.

Your child can't respect their parents enough not to spill cola on the couch?

And what about when they get married will they respect their spouse enough or dare I say their children enough to not deliberatley mess up the home?

You're child can't dress in accordance with the basic House Dress Code?

How many Jobs do you think they will be disqualified from?

You're child wants to de everything how and when they please?

How many teachers are going to literally be driven crazy by them?

And guess what a whole host of "mental disorders" out there, IMO are nothing of the sort.
Rather they are the byproducts of a "child rearing" philosophy that focuses more on making sure the "children are "friends with the parents then the parents actually raising their children.

My Dh's Mashgiach once told him.
"A parent should have a good healthy relationship with their child, but they don't have to be their child's "best friend"
.
You're children have friends, they need you to be their parent, and thats what they want and if youre a good parent you'll have a good relationship with them"

If a Parent does not expect respect, demand respect, expect an adherence to rules and basic "social norms".
If a child cannot ecognize the basic values of their parents in their parents homes, when their parents lives literally revolve around them.

The parents try their best to provide for them,
Find the best schools for them,
Buy clothes and the fill the rest of their needs.
Provide emotianal support for them.
And the Parents are usually 20 years or more older then them.

Then it's no "disorder" when the child has no respect, cannot follow rules or listen to anybody.
It's because the parents have taught them they don't have to.
Teaching and Demanding any of these things from children is not "manipulating" them.

It's parenting.

It's teaching them to be normal human beings.

And sorry for being amother but I am pretty sure some of the things I said will be misunderstood.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:46 pm

Just wanted to add a thing.
FS,
That thing you said about Love.
Sometimes true love is exactly what means you can't accept certain behaviours.

Who are we really loving when we allow our children to do whatever they want however they want.

Them?

Or ourselves?

StrongIma

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 11:05 pm

ora_43 wrote:

chani I think that ultimately your point is very reasonable, it's just creating debate because of strange wording.

"I choose not to treat my teens badly if they don't keep halacha the way I do" is not "I choose my teens over my religion." For the simple reason that your religion does not require, or even recommend, that you treat your teens badly for not keeping halacha the way that you do.

you have the mitzva of chinuch and rebuke, but even those have definitions and limits- you rebuke only out of love, not while experiencing any anger or personal distress, and not when you know that it won't be accepted in the spirit it was given.

once the kids know your guidelines, it doesn't do much good to keep repeating them. once in a long while, I do give a gentle reminder - at the same time reminding myself that once they're past 12 or 13, it's their own issue with HKBH more than mine. I did the best I could raising them - now it's up to them to live their own lives as best as they can.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 11:30 pm

I'm with FS, 100%!

Being a born and raised American, I've been thinking that I was the only parent left in this country with half a brain in her head. All this rainbow snowflake special princess stuff does NOT fly with me. A child is a child, a parent is a parent, and everyone has to show respect and act like a mentch.

DD is bright, strong willed, stubborn and full of life. She's hardly what you would call "a robot" or a conformist in any way. Still, when the older ladies come up to me in shul, I always hear "Your daughter is so delightful! I didn't think they made kids like that anymore." I like to remember this every time some hippie parent tells me that I'm too strict (while their kids are running around the shul screaming and throwing wet paper towels at each other).

DD understands that every rule I have, and every rule of the Torah, is for her to have a long and happy life. She's very logic driven, and when she wants something that I have to say "no" to, I ask her "Would I be a good mom if I let you have /do that?" I let her think it over, and she has to honestly answer me, "No, you're right." even when she's disappointed in the outcome.

We compromise within firm boundaries, and have good communication. If you set that up from day one, it will carry you a long way. As was said before, kids of all ages want boundaries, they crave them, even as they kick and scream about them. Kids want parents that they can respect, not "grown up buddies to hang out with". When the waters of life get stormy, she wants to know that there's someone keeping the rudder steady, not sleeping below the decks, or swinging on the sails going "Wheeeee!"

DD has a lot stacked against her. She has some special needs, we live in a less observant community than I would like, she has to attend a public school, and the only kids she has to play with around here are not Jewish (and some are very chutzpadik). It's my responsibility to balance out these influences, and give her a solid sense of self, a strong Jewish identity, and a belief that she can have a fun, exciting, adventurous life within the bounds of halacha.

↑ freidasima ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 12:29 am

I truly understand those of you who say "yes, FS is talking about your average Joe teen but I don't have one like that, my kid has REAL problems and that keeps him/her from responding to anything like what she suggests, it's just not applicable for my kid".

So..let's separate between four issues. First is someone parenting small children and wanting to know how to do it so that they will try and avoid situations such as listed here. The second is someone parenting small children with special needs which come in the way of carrying out logical chinuch as I call it. The third is someone parenting older children who already have issues with respect, following parental rules, house rules or whatever, and the last is someone in that situation, but again, with a special needs child.

So first it's a lot easier with smaller, non special needs kids. There one has to be consistent, use a combination of logic and rules which a child may not accept or understand but with threat of sanctions. It's true chinuch and for that a parent has to be 100% sure of his or her derekh and at the same time to have a big of flexibility within that derekh. That means that if bedtime is supposed to be 8 PM but there is a really good reason to let that kid stay up until 9 one night, so be it. That's not a rule written in stone. There have, however to be a few rules written in stone that even a four year old can understand are yehoreg ve'al yaavor. Such as "one doesnt' turn on the oven or the flame". Such as "one doesn't run into the street". Such as "one doesn't eat a meat meal with a glass of milk." Such as "one doesn't turn on or off the lights on shabbos". They can also be "one doesn't go to school in a shirt and a pair of tights and no skirt" etc. Nothing outree, just what is normal in one's society within limits. If such a kid pushes the envelope or pencil or whatever, there are warnings, and then there are sanctions. The relationship should also be that a child wants his or her parent's approval and therefore a parent's vocal and visual dissapointment can also be a working sanction.

Then there is the special needs kid in the same situation. All depends on the amount of understanding and mental age that child has according to his or her emotional/mental age. Could be a special needs child of ten has the emotional ability of understanding, comprehending and carrying out that a four year old has, and so he/she has to be treated like a four year old with appropriate explanations and sanctions.

But in both cases parents have to be consistent and explain and carry out rules until they are done by rote. Don't push too many rules, that gets impossible, but in general? Rules keep us going. By the time such children are teens they are used to it and hopefully they will push their limits on a few things but it won't be a free for all. Special needs kids might push on more, but if they are used to a certain way of life for ten or more cognitive years before hitting puberty, it's easier.

Then there is the teens who are already there, didn't get that type of chinuch when younger. What is one to do with them? Parents are allowed even when a kid is 16, to come up with rules. Will they lose that kid if they push it? Depends what "lose" means. Will that kid run away and cut off all contact with a parent and end up taking drugs or turning tricks (you should pardon me) on the street to support themselves? Most don't. A small group do. Very much depends what are the rules being broken. Big difference between a kid who decides that they don't want to keep shabbos and a kid who decides to be a hooligan in general. If a kid doesnt' want to keep shabbos, also depends on whether it is peer pressure, stam a trying out of their wings, or an intellectual decision. If it is the first or second, one has a good chance of it blowing over after teenage years pass, if it is the third, most likely that child will become secular. But one usually doesn't have the real behavioral problems with the third kind, they are usually willing to do their thing in private while toeing the line in public, especially if one explains to them that it will only be another two, three, etc. years that they will be living at home, and at 18 when they go to college (in EY, army, etc.) they won't be under their parents' roof full time and can live the life they want and meanwhile, please honor their parents by toeing the line in public.

The problem is with first two groups. There again one needs compromises with them and to try and give them a belief in themselves, their own choices for what is good for them and remind them that their peers won't necessarily be around in another year or two and then will they be influenced by other peers? Maybe it's time for them to think what is good for them and why without connection to what other people - including parents - think. To talk it out with them, to validate their feelings if they make sense but to explain that people live in society and that in society there are rules, right now they are in their parents home and parents society and have to live by their rules etc. and soon enough they will live their own lives, that you are parents won't cut with them if they are living a different kind of life than what you would have wanted, it doesn't mean you will be happy about it or support it financially, but you will continue to love them and be there for them as parents.

Then there are the hooligans. Those are tzurris. They need hard fast rules and sanctions. If one can't physically remove such a child from the house one can mentally remove them. Until they act like menschen they get the minimum necessary for survival. Food bought for them and if one is serving an entire family, served to them. If they don't want to eat with the family because they want treif? Then tell them it doesn't come into the house. They bring it into the house? It gets thrown out. They want revenge and start throwing out your possessions? Call the cops if this is an older and dangerous child, and espeically if there are other children at home. Some kids are so shocked by it that it shakes them up enough to listen. And the ones who arent'? I hate to say it but they are far lost in the first place.

For those still reading, here's the rub. Everything depends in such cases on two variables. How many other kids are at home and how much nerves you have. If there are other kids at home you have to protect them first and foremost from such a kid. A hooligan is a hooligan and it has nothing to do with religious matters. Such a kid is liable to become a hooligan with a younger brother or sister as well and hurt them or their possessions. Therefore protect your younger or other kids. Second if there are no more kids at home it also depends on your nerves. Sometimes parents have to take care of themselves and their own physical and mental health. Not everyone is willing to let their marriage break up because of a problematic kid, not everyone is capable of parenting such a child. Sometimes they need meds in a closed treatment setting. Sometimes they need special therapists which the best parent can not provide at home. It doesn't make that parent a failure, it just means that Hashem gave them a burden that they can not and should not bear alone.

People are afraid to take care of themselves, they are often afraid to make choices between children. Sometimes it has to be done. Sometimes one child has to be "sacrificed" to save five others. It's a horrible thing to think of and worse to have to do. But there are cases where it can't be helped.

May we not know from such cases and if we do, may Hashem give us the emotional and physical strength and guidance to get through it in one piece.

↑ Culturedpearls ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:34 am

Freidasima, your posts have been excellent. I agree 100%.
I always tell my kids that our home is no democracy, it's more communism Smile

"each according to his ability, each according to his need".
Maybe we're dictators? We don't allow chutzpa or lack of derech Eretz. I'm their parent first not their friend.
Does that mean we have no relationship? Not at all, we all have a great respectful & loving relationship.

Chani8, what would happen if you'd tell DD - no cleavage in my house or DS - in my house you wear a kippa?

To those with special needs teens - I'm sorry , that must be torture.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:39 am

chani8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

OK, chani. How would you react if your child decided to deliberately break things in the house? Or rearrange (and insist on keeping) the furniture in a way you didn't like? Or buy a rabbit and keep it in your salon when you are allergic to them or they won't clean out the hutch and leave it to smell? Or have loud parties at 3 in the morning with their friends in your apartment?

It would all be okay, right? Because it's their house too and they need to feel comfortable.

What you are saying sounds more like you are not really bothered about keeping halacha and less like encouraging a comfortable atmosphere.

But the two are totally different. Even the teens know it. They know when we are coming from righteous indignation, and when we are parenting.

Why are they different? Maybe when you expect your children to keep halacha it is from righteous indignation, but when I expect my children to do so, it is because I believe it is the right way for a Jew to live their life. There is nothing wrong with people having norms in their homes which everyone is expected to keep - as I said that includes people who don't live there too. Nowhere in this thread has anyone discussed forcing a child in their late teens or above to keep halacha (I don't think anyone believes you can, anyway) - the only discussion is what behavior I expect from someone publicly in my home.

So, just like I expect (and would demand) that no one throws a noisy party at 3 in the morning because it makes me miserable/ uncomfortable in my own home, likewise I expect anyone in my home on Shabbos to (at least) outwardly keep Shabbos. I don't believe in spying on adult or near adult children. But I expect other people to have consideration for the person who bought and prepared their food and roof over their heads.

marina ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 4:44 am

Special need kids need boundaries and if those are absent, they often use that lack of discipline to their advantage and act out more.

I see this many times, both in professional settings and with friends.

Having a special needs kid doesn't absolve you from the basics of parenting. Although, it will certainly be harder.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 4:55 am

FS I am curious, what do you do if such situations happen:

1) non frum new neighbour comes in with a cleavage (she is older so you respect her)
2) you tell atheist cousin to put on a kippa for dinner and he says no way