I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 11:26 am

FS, you got me laughing again (in a good way)! My experience has been that when teens act up like this, they DO have special needs, although perhaps the "hidden disability" sort. I don't mean Down syndrome. I mean ADHD, Asperger's, ODD, sensory and such.

These teens will not move out, "get a job" and "pay rent". They will just wither, starve, fall into depression, fall in with druggies and suffer. So you can't say "tow the line or get out".

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 11:45 am

I am amother for "kicks".
I have to admit that I've posted as amother alot when fighting with FS which is why I am davka doing it now.
Have to admit that her posts on this thread have been the most logical and down to earth.
In fact I at least am thankful that she has the guts to post some things that used to be pretty well accepted as the "basics" and were not controversial in the least.

Kind of the kind of stuff that used to cross "party lines" and were known and understood by all parents.
But sadly as FS said an entire society has sprung up against them basically stating "kids are equals' and run the world.

I will just state it goes both ways.
Kids are Kids.
And the Parents have to understand they are the Parents I.e Adults and the Parents of their children and act like it.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 11:46 am

Isramom, Aspergers, ADD, ADHD or any kind of PTD almost always manifests itself in a way other than lack of manners towards parents.

Therefore if one has a teen like that, there are a whole bunch of issues and being OTD is only one of them. The main issue has to be addressed and treated so that one can deal with all the fallout. For that one needs serious therapy and behavioral modification, not just parents setting down the law.

Most cases of teenage rebellion are just that. Teenagers full of hormones and anger and testing their parents to see how far they can push. Other cases deserve other treatment, I'm not talking about them.

And as for letting a 7 year old go to school without a coat...depends what else they are wearing. If the school clothes include a sweater, an undershirt, a shirt and a vest, well then some kids can cope fine walking to the corner to get on a heated school bus to go to their heated school and come home that way in 30 degree Farenheit weather.

If however that same kid has to walk a mile to school and back in the snow, it's really not advisable for obvious reasons. Parents of 7 year old kids have a responsibility for that child's physical welfare and exposure to such cold for a long time can land that kid in the hospital with something. And then what? When the services want to prosecute a parent what exactly should that parent say? "Dorothy didn't want to wear her coat and even though she is seven she knows her own mind so we let her walk a half hour in the snow in a shirt and undershirt?!"

↑ greenfire ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:05 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

These teens will not move out, "get a job" and "pay rent". They will just wither, starve, fall into depression, fall in with druggies and suffer. So you can't say "tow the line or get out".

thank you for saying what so many people don't understand about me & my overgrown teens

[ironically they blame me for it all - but that's a different monster]

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:15 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Shalhevet and FS - And what if your child is "ill-mannered" or "doesn't have derech eretz"? There are special needs that manifest in these ways. The streets?

I really can't imagine a child/ adult brought up in this kind of culture behaving like that. Even if ch''v they were OTD they would still keep the house rules, just like they wouldn't spill cola on the sofa and not (at least try to) clean it up or play loud music at 3 in the morning. Unless someone mentioned it every 5 minutes.

Isramom, I agree with FS that we aren't talking about special needs teens. I would imagine that almost always such problems were diagnosed before, not when they became an OTD teen.

Another thing, as someone mentioned before, is what unconditionally allowing your child to do whatever they want in the hope of getting them back (as opposed to loving unconditionally) will have on any other children. This is something parents need to discuss with someone expert in chinuch and/or their rav. Sometimes everyone might be better off if an OTD child lives somewhere else.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:17 pm

So it boils down to, "Do these things because I demand kavod. I'm your parent, this is my house, if you want to live here, you'll do what I say."

Sounds like a good relationship. NOT.

How about, be comfortable, this is your home too. I'm not going to look over your shoulder, criticizing you, watching you, checking for a kippa, checking your cleavage before we go out the door, or judging you in any way. You are adult enough to make your own decisions. I do believe a family is a democracy, and the parents are the presidents.

So, why should I care whether DS wears a kippa to the table, or DD covers her cleavage??? Why is it my business? If my neighbors came over like that, I would welcome them, and say nothing. Why should I treat my child any different?? I want them to be comfortable. And even more so, I'd want to get over myself, and not be bothered by it. They think it is ok to be like this, so why is it my business to make them feel bad? Well, of course, I believe they are violating halacha, and so they are being unacceptable. And on that basis, I will make myself and possibly them, miserable, by pushing my beliefs, my rules, my halacha, onto them.

And if my teen really believed that it was ok to wear sweats to a bris, I'd let him or her. You take it as a slap in the face, and I don't take it personally. My kid has bad taste, that is about him. Not my problem. People may think, why is that kid wearing sweats. But how can they think, why is that mom allowing that kid to wear sweats, when the 'kid' is a teen, aka young adult?!

This mentality is exactly what I am talking about, FS, and while you may be able to manipulate obedience in your home, what have you gained? When they walk away, they'll do what they want. And your relationship was shallow, because they couldn't just relax and be themselves.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:24 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Another thing, as someone mentioned before, is what unconditionally allowing your child to do whatever they want in the hope of getting them back (as opposed to loving unconditionally) will have on any other children. This is something parents need to discuss with someone expert in chinuch and/or their rav. Sometimes everyone might be better off if an OTD child lives somewhere else.

This is the mentality that causes the children to go completely away. But then, that is better to you than accepting them for who they are. You're worried about the effect they will have on the other kids, but really, what you should be worrying about, is the message not only the OTD child is getting, but the other kids as well. They see rejection of a family member based on halacha. What kind of religion is this that throws away a family member because they flip on a light on the Sabbath?? What kind of parent chooses their religion and religious beliefs over their own child??

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:27 pm

OK, chani. How would you react if your child decided to deliberately break things in the house? Or rearrange (and insist on keeping) the furniture in a way you didn't like? Or buy a rabbit and keep it in your salon when you are allergic to them or they won't clean out the hutch and leave it to smell? Or have loud parties at 3 in the morning with their friends in your apartment?

It would all be okay, right? Because it's their house too and they need to feel comfortable.

What you are saying sounds more like you are not really bothered about keeping halacha and less like encouraging a comfortable atmosphere.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:28 pm

greenfire wrote:

been telling my kids over the years that it's not about tznius it's about self-respect ... but that's when they're going over the limit of anything practical in other words some things are worse than cleavage

Exactly, greenfire. Take it out of the realm of halacha. They know what the halacha is. They obviously have a problem with the halacha. So teach them about self respect, about self love. About dressing comfortable, practical, respectable, and appropriate to the situation.

Was it Isramom8 that pointed out that it seems kids use tznius to push our buttons the most? It's so true. So to me, if the only acting out is tznius related, there is hope, and the best thing you can do is ignore it and let go of the halacha tripping you up and making you want to cover your child, and instead, give the child the positive attn they are so desperate for.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:31 pm

shalhevet wrote:

But the two are totally different. Even the teens know it. They know when we are coming from righteous indignation, and when we are parenting.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:44 pm

Although I started out disagreeing with what seemed to be Chani8's approach of "choosing children over religion", I'm agreeing with her supportive attitude more now.

Shalhevet, you may not have met them, but there are kids raised frum and with structure who would spill Coke and not clean it up, and play loud music at 3 AM. Because they have special needs of the kind I mentioned. They don't even have to be OTD. Yes, there are kids who will even break furniture, and what you have to do is make sure they don't get hurt.

Regarding tznius, the daughter who once arrived at the Shabbos table in sweat pants to test us and we didn't say anything, is now the frummest of the frum, in a stable and mature way, so go know.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:51 pm

I guess I'm more european here than american. It doesn't go over, period, when talking about normal kids. And no, I wouldn't let my neighbor come to my shabbos table without a kipa either, he would NOT be welcome to do so.

House rules. For everyone. No matter what.
Like no eating in the bedroom, under peanalty of banishment. The only person permitted to eat in a bedroom under those circumstances would be someone like my mother who is 100% bedridden and doesn't go out to a bathroom even. get it?

Absolute rules exist for a reason. The house is NOT for a kid's comfort. For that, they will have their own house one day. This is MY house. When I lived in my parents home I didn't have 100% comfort either. For that I got married and got my own house. It's the way of the world. Some parents seem to think that they have to make the house comfortable for the kids at their own expense. Why?! This is their one chance, once they had to listen to their parents and toe the line and soon enough they will be in an old age home with drakonian rules and have to toe the line there. These are their years. The ones in which they have their home and make the rules there and if someone doesn't like it? Tough noogies. It's all what one thinks a home is, what being a parent is and what parent-child relationships are according to them.

If my kid would spill cola on the sofa deliberately and make noise deliberately at 3 AM they would have been shipped out of here toute suite to a dorm or someplace else. My home? My rules.

I'm tough. And it works. It's called "toughlove". I'm not tough about everything, but I have my red lines. My home? My lines.

↑ CatLady ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 12:59 pm

This is one of the times when I wish the term "off the derech" didn't exist. Can I reframe the acronym to read "On Their Derech"? I don't come from a one-size-fits-all culture, and TBH I don't see being a clone as an especially desirable trait. I also don't like the implication that there's Only One Derech - a brief perusal of any general thread on this board will show that even among the frum female population, there is a wide spectrum of flavours of observance. If we can let go of the My Way or the Highway mentality, it can only help in all matters, from parenting to coexisting on Imamother. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm (probably) not the only one!

I still don't like sweatpants as a fashion statement, FWIW. But making a fashion faux pas may be the best way for Tyler or Alicia to learn how to dress appropriately as opposed to Mom's yammering at them.

ora_43 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:00 pm

chani8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

But the two are totally different. Even the teens know it. They know when we are coming from righteous indignation, and when we are parenting.

I don't think they're totally different. They're sort of different, because people tend to see the way they dress and their religious observance as a form of self-expression, more so than the volume at which they play music or the number of things they break.

So asking someone to put on a different shirt is much more likely to earn a "DON'T TRY TO CHANGE ME" type response.

But OTOH, it all comes down to respect. Teens need to know that the way they dress shows respect (or lack thereof) for those around them. You can decide that in your own home you won't care how they dress, but when they show up at someone else's simcha in sweatpants, or show up to work in a dirty shirt, other people will sure care, and your teen will suffer the consequences. So whatever the rules at home they'll have to learn the concept either way, and IMO better to learn it at home than through harsh life experience if possible.

Openly not keeping Shabbat is also a matter of respect. And again, if they treat other people that way, they'll suffer consequences (ie, people liking them less, because nobody likes feeling disrespected).

↑ greenfire ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:03 pm

shalhevet wrote:

you know you hit a sore spot ... I actually have those kind of teens that are destructive and deliberate moving stuff around just to annoy or control [sometimes I jokingly say checkmate upon moving it back] or maybe it's just an inability of sorts & yes I would try to encourage them to be respectful & I repeat as necessary ... I constantly tell them that in my mother's house she does as she wishes & I was respectful - in your home you can have a pig with an apple if you choose & I will come over but I won't eat - you can wear high heels & stomp in the middle of the night ... et cetera et cetera et cetera ... but in my home my wishes are that you respect my space ... my home keeps shabbos my computer keeps shabbos my car [before the fire] keeps shabbos, my refrigerator keeps shabbos & to kindly do whatever it is in your room behind closed doors ...

however, I do not need my already delicate kids going off the deep edge ... because if I push them too far - that is where they will be - that is where they have been and I've had to take them off that ledge

but that is what I choose to do as the mother who bore them into this world - to protect and love unconditionally

it's not easy having to deal with sometimes even at my own sacrifice ...

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:07 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

But that's not about choosing kids over religion, it's about understanding what your kids are capable of doing.

I agree with not asking more than kids are able to do, but I also agree with previous posters that turning it into "kids vs. religion" is doing a disservice to both parenting and religion. The two are integrated - caring for my kids and educating them is a mitzva; teaching them respect for Hashem is good parenting.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 1:10 pm

chani I think that ultimately your point is very reasonable, it's just creating debate because of strange wording.

"I choose not to treat my teens badly if they don't keep halacha the way I do" is not "I choose my teens over my religion." For the simple reason that your religion does not require, or even recommend, that you treat your teens badly for not keeping halacha the way that you do.