I choose my teens over my religion!

↑ greenfire ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 7:38 am

amother wrote:

I will love my kids whether they are OTD or not. However, it's a struggle to not let my deep disappointment seep through. In addition to all the regular reasons women want to have kids, I felt a strong need to do my part to ensure the continuation of the Jewish people. But if my kids are OTD, I have not achieved that goal.

Such is life. You do your best to raise your kids and then they grow up and do whatever they want.

There is the disappointment when nachas moments get lost in the rebellion. When you cannot rely on them to be around for yomim tovim cause they might be off to a club. When you get invitations that their once classmates are engaged to be married. Yeah there are too many hurts in a rebel world to go into.

you cannot really control it all ... despite what you feel inside

my house my rules doesn't always work when you go to sleep at night or leave to shul & come back to find things you'd rather run away from ...

↑ Merrymom ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 7:42 am

When my teens go out with their friends then my standards aren't as strict as when they go out with me. Now what does this mean, that I care what the neighbors think? No, actually I could not care any less. I feel that when I'm out with my child dressed inappropriately then I'm putting my stamp of approval on what they're wearing, I'm saying I'm ok with that. So if they really want to go out shopping with me they'll change. Am I comfortable doing that? Yes, 100%. I don't see myself as a law enforcer but as showing them that we have standards and that we can't just do what we want to. Do you think I enjoy covering my hair for example? No, I hate it but if that's what's required of me then I'll do it. I expect my children to understand this concept. We don't just serve Hashem when it's easy and when it suits us. Sometimes it's even hard but it's also a very rewarding life. Ahavah v'Yirah (serving Hashem with BOTH love and fear).

↑ Inspired ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 8:12 am

chani8 wrote:

Inspired wrote:

There are ways to say things to people with respect and love.

Were you at all prepared that your children were going to grow up into thinking individuals with their own feelings and a desire to carve out their own path in life? You aren't a carbon copy of your parents. I don't understand what you thought was going to happen when your kids grew up.

You can speak with respect and love all you want to a teen, but if the topic of conversation is annoying to them, and they sense you have an agenda, they won't want to listen.

My agenda being that I love and want the best for them in life?

Quote:

No, I was not prepared for teens. And I wouldn't call them 'thinking individuals' so much, either. They are hormonal and unstable and thinking under peer pressure.

They don't think? Hormonal I hear. Unstable? Like mentally ill? Some amount of peer pressure is of course normal. I think normal healthy teens should have the ability to think beyond the peer pressure.

Quote:

Are you having an easy time with your teens?

This thread was not started by me, this discussion is not about my children. I respect my children and young adult/ teens not to discuss them and issues they might have on a completely open and public internet forum that anyone can read.
FTR I am having the type of time parenting teens that I expected more or less. They are the same kids they always were, and now they are teenagers.

↑ chani8 ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 8:57 am

Isramom8 wrote:

We definitely clash with our teens sometimes. But overall, they are well aware of our values, while at the same time we don't force them into religious activities. Their friends like hanging out in our house. It's a fine balance between modeling high standards and honestly appreciating teens exactly as they are at the moment. A challenge to create a working balance between a structured home and a chilled, relaxed one. May we all have siyata dishmaya with this.

Isramom8 and Culturedpearls, I do want to clarify that I am actually doing ok with my teens. And I've read the books and gone to classes and am constantly updating my parenting shitta. (Maybe this thread is part of that update).

Anyway, both of you mention boundaries, rules and structure. I think I've got that part down. The problem that I was addressing on this thread, is about being willing to compromise my boundaries, making them more flexible, and ultimately finding the "chill button", especially when faced with a teen who may be dressing or behaving in a way that goes against the rules. I've been working on finding a way to be truly, truly, OK with my teen, on a deep down, love-them-for-who-they-are way, even when they refuse to hold by my standards.

The only way I'm able to 'chill' is to stop taking responsibility for their yiddishkeit. By now, at this age, they've been taught the basics, I would think. And of course I'm open to teach more. But until and unless they ask, I feel like the solution is for me to mind my own business. It is now their religion to do with as they wish. And my job is to just enjoy them for who they are. And of course help them be who they want to be, if they want my help.

↑ Merrymom ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 9:05 am

chani8 wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

In theory I agree with you but I don't know how a perso turns off the parent switch in their own home. It's still your home your rules. What if c'v a kid is using bad language in front of their younger siblings? Would you still say it's their religion? Why should you be able to control their speech but not their clothing?

↑ Merrymom ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 9:17 am

saw50st8 wrote:

You ultimately can't control your kids at all (or will fail them as parents).

Sometimes, you have to accept negatives from one of your kids for their own personal benefit.

You can still parent them.

*not the parent of a teenager, but remembers what it was like to be one

No you can't fully control them. In fact it shouldn't have the appearance of controlling them. For example my dd wanted some really horrific shoes, huge huge stillettos. I am absolutely opposed to her wearing them. So I told her that I'd be really dissappointed if she ever wore them in public, and that if she decides to go ahead with it, she'll have to pay for it herself. I'm definitely not going to pay for something that I consider assur to wear. So she did buy them, wore it to one party and never wore it out of the house again.

Btw, if anyone wonders why most of my post re teens are about clothing is because it seems that's where the teens really try to push your buttons the most. In every other way they're basically the same kids I always have had (only the think I'm old fashioned and hopelessly not with it like most teens do). I believe that for the most part teens will absorb the values of their parents (eventually anyway) unless it's always been a difficult relationship.

freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 9:37 am

Here maybe one has to separate between the rules that go along with religion, the rules that go along with good manners and a natural teenage desire to often push the pencil to the edge.

Another thing to take into account are cookie cutter societies versus those with more leeway, and what the real legal boundaries of halocho are.

So one has to be knowledgeable in a whole bunch of things in order to deal with this rationally, and at the same time, not to feel like one is "compromising" something which is very serious to them.

First and foremost, parents are permitted to make "house rules". It helps if they at the same time learn to turn a blind eye to some things that take place out of the house, not in their presence, etc.

There is also a difference between a child who decides intellectually that they don't believe, don't have anything against people who do believe, but it just isn't for them, and between kids who are rebelling and identify religion and observance with parents or teachers that they want to thwart.

House rules should be pretty loose in general, but for the few red lines, they should be marked in glowing magic marker and people should know that across the board, unless in dire life or death emergency, these rules should be kept.

Again, the rules can be manners, can be style, can be halocho, etc. But they should be kept because they are house rules.

Here are a few examples. If it is important for a parent that all men should wear a yarmulka to the table to eat, so be it. If you aren't frum, then take one from the drawer for the meal, period.

If it is important for a parent that there not be chilul shabbos befarhesia in their home, so be it. They can't stop what a teenager may do in their room, quietly, but not in public.

Those are two examples of halocho or minhog that has become halocho (covering head to eat, etc.) that have nothing to do with mores or manners.

but what about the coming to a bris in sweat pants? No way Jose. That's crass. One gets dressed up for a bris. That's the kind of thing that a davka kid will try to pull. No davkas work. If you won't dress like a mench, and that doesn't necessarily mean black pants white shirt but rather a dress set of pants and a nice shirt, then mister, we can happily do without your presence. Because if you don't respect what is acceptable in our society you are spitting in my face if you want to come to my society for something. Why do you want to go to this bris kiddo? Because I'm forcing you? I'm not forcing you. Zei Gezint, don't come. Because it's your nephew's bris? And in your sister's society there is a proper way to dress? Don't spit in her face either, not nice. That's very very childish.

In my world there is no middle ground of behavior. If you are a kid, let's say age 10-12 and down, then you do as mommy said, period. Mommy says wear X? Then you wear X.

Above that, you are an adult if you say "I don't have to do what mommy says". You are right. You are grown up. Then act like one. Adults (and you claim at 13 you are an adult? fine) don't come dressed like a laughingstock that makes them look so different than anyone else there that people will turn around and point fingers at them. An adult also has a responsibility to not embarrass the people they are with, in this case, you, the parent. Therefore if they want to be treated like adults they have to act like it. And if they won't....then better they shouldn't be around.

Imaonwheels who used to be on here had a great theory, she said that boys especially between 14-18 should be sent to hard labor to take away their excess energy because that's an age that they can be real trouble. When they calm down a bit older then send them back to school as they can finally use their brain to learn something. While I wouldn't go so far I would say that good manners - or as Green wrote - "derekh eretz" is a really important concept here. It's not a question of what is halochically permitted or not, it's a question of acting "normal" for a particular occasion, dressing according to the occasion and the crowd, and not making a spectacle of onesself.

In a home its a question of not rocking the boat publically while parents have enough sechel not to delve into what a teenager will do with a closed door unless it is something really dangerous.

After 14 years of chinuch in a home, that kid should know exactly what their parents think is ok and what is not, what their parents hold as halocho and what is unacceptable. If the child wants a different derekh no one can force them to keep the parents' derekh, but they don't have to spit in the parents' face while living off their bounty. If it's so bad then move out and have your own life. While at home, keep to house rules. Just don't make those rules too hard.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:08 am

What I do believe is that today, teenagers get a lot of support from people - their peer group, the media, educators and psychologists - for the idea that "the young people run the world". And that makes them think that they can often get away with behavior that is totally antisocial and hurtful.

That has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with issues of maturity and pushing the pencil. The two don't go together. If someone is living under their parents' roof and living off them, in my book they aren't allowed to exhibit a certain type of uncaring, exhibitionist, or nasty behavior. That has nothing to do with religion, only with good manners.

If a girl wants to wear pants in general and her parents only believe in skirts, they have a right to say 1) it's your life but we don't believe in pants for girls and therefore we won't pay for them. If you want to use your babysitting money to buy pants, that's your business.

If pants on women are not acceptable in your society, if they are going to a public or religious function with you and are living under your roof, you still have every right to say "no way Jose", when you come with us you wear what is acceptable in our society, if you want to go to your pants wearing friends in pants, then that's your business and we won't comment.

That's just good manners.

Remember something else. When one has more than one child, then what one child does and how one responds to that child, teaches all the other children something. If one does not condone a certain behavior one has to be certain that the other children understand that and know it. That's what house rules are for. Otherwise there is a good chance that the other kids might very well go the way of that first one and the parent ends up losing all the children to their way of life. There is also a red line one has to draw somewhere and parents have the right to draw it wherever they want. Their house? Their right.

In my house there is no chillul shabbos. If a guest wants to come for shabbos, either they walk here or if they "could" actually walk here and don't inform me that they came a different way, that's their business. I will not however invite someone from a different city for a friday night dinner. My rules, my home, my right to do so. I won't let food with a hechsher I won't accept enter my house. If I have a secular Jewish man to friday night dinner I will offer a kippa at the begining of the meal. He can take it off the second the meal is over, but my anti-religious friends (and I have them, believe me) are easygoing enough to know and keep to (while laughing at) my house rules.

If I am about to lose my kid because he won't put on a kippa at the table because of house rules, then I haven't been too good at teaching him derekh eretz. He doesn't have to believe in it, he has to believe in ME and not want to tick me off. It's called good manners and respecting parents.

shalhevet ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:26 am

Isramom, I think this is a real culture clash. What FS says is totally accepted in European society and among Israelis of European origin (as opposed to American). It is nothing to do with being frum or even Jewish. It is just culturally accepted that when you are on someone else's home turf you behave in accordance with their rules, even though you don't on 'public' or your own turf even if you are with them. (Yes, I know FS is from America, but I don't think her parents are/were).

Therefore any well-mannered woman will wear a hat or scarf and tznius clothing (or at least what she thinks tznius clothing is) when she visits a chareidi home, even though she doesn't usually. They won't (knowingly) break Shabbos when they are in front of their hosts in their hosts' home. And it's the same with children - unless they are ill-mannered and/or trying to deliberate get everyone annoyed, they will keep the 'house rules' even if they disagree with them.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 18 2012, 10:39 am

Exactly Shal. What I wrote is just accepted cultural behavior. And everyone and anyone, at any age, has to keep to it if they are mentally and physically fit or as we say "of sound mind and body".

Isramom, you are adding another variable not mentioned before. If someone has a special needs child that's a different story and one has to deal with him or her differently as that child is often unable to understand or live by basic rules because of their inability to understand the concept of "acceptable behavior"

There are special techniques to deal with such children, and it has nothing to do with religion. Such children might get into their heads that it is fine to go out topless to the street in the middle of the winter (boys). Are we going to let them do that as well? It has nothing to do with religion.

I am talking about "normal" teens and "normal" acceptable behavior. Parents have a tendency to abdicate and to think that the household has to revolve around children. It does not. It has to revolve around family and ways of life that the family has. And the people who decide on the "family's way of life"? They are the parents.

Americans have a tendency - and in this I am VERY not american - that a family is a democracy and that children have equal rights. A family is NOT a democracy, children do not have an equal vote. And yes if they don't like it, then they either have to toe the line or move out. It won't be the end of the world if a child or rather a teenager of sixteen believes SO strongly that they MUST be mechalel shabbos befarhesia, that they are willing to quit school, get a job, and rent a room in an apartment with other young people where they can do what they want when they want. There is nothing THAT IMPORTANT in a 16 year old's life that he HAS to be mechalel shabbos in front of you.

The problem is parents who don't know where to draw the line and start saying that they want the child to be 100% like them. Look like them, talk like them, study what the parents want, where the parents want and I can keep going, the cookie cutter mode. That's not going to work. But that's why I said to choose one's battles wisely. Dressing properly when going out with the family, not talking back, eating kosher at home, keeping shabbos at home. Etc. It's not hard. If the kid wants to text they can go to their room. They have their own room? The door is closed? They turn the light on or off? Closed door, their business. But if they want to make themselves an omlette on shabbos? Find another home. Yep. Not mine. They want to drink a glass of milk at the table with me there just after finishing a hamburger? Not in this lifetime boyaleh...

In short, I'm talking about your average teen, not a special needs one.