Hashem decrees how much money you'll have

amother

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 10:54 am

I know that Hashem decides on R"H how much $ a family will have during the year. I'm wondering does that include tzedaka they'll give or just money that they have to spend.

Meaning: Can I give tons of tzedaka anyway since Hashem decreed how much money I will get & the money for tzedaka I'm not keeping so it's not part of the cheshbon?
I guess an easier way of looking at things is the cheshbon the Net value or the Gross value?

Mammy

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 10:58 am

The more you give the more you get.

busymom ↓

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 11:07 am

I remember learning that a person must not give so much money for tzeddakah (after taking off maaser) that he may one day also need to be supported by others. So, no, I don't think ppl can just keep giving beyond their means and expect their wallet to keep refilling.

chocolate moose

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 11:18 am

No, you can't!

Just like you can't call a cleaning crew, chef and a waiter to serve you for Shabos, and expect to have money left for anything else!

Esther01

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 11:34 am

you gotta give with in your limits.

yet why is one person called a baal tzedakkah and another stingy? both feel they give with in their limits...?

this is what I think. you shouldn't make an exact cheshbon of what you have and how much you can give... but rather be a bit flexible. again with in your limits.... (hard to explain-I hope I'm clear)

↑ busymom ↓

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 12:33 pm

Esther01 wrote:

you gotta give with in your limits.

yet why is one person called a baal tzedakkah and another stingy? both feel they give with in their limits...?

very simple. it doesn't matter what they "feel" is in their limits, but what the reality actually is. if a poor and wealthy person each give $50 to marry an orphan in the community, the poor person would be called generous and the wealthy one stingy. a baal tzedaka gives a lot more than the 10% required by law, while a stingy person rationalizes why he "shouldn't" give all that he can.

chen

Mon, Nov 06 2006, 1:07 pm

busymom wrote:

I don't think ppl can just keep giving beyond their means and expect their wallet to keep refilling.

you are not supposed to give away more than 1/5 of what you have.

Motek ↓

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 3:38 pm

We've discussed this before ... I'll quote myself from another thread:

Quote:

Would we tell someone who is very sick, ch'v, that he can only spend up to a fifth of his money to cure himself? Definitely not. A person can spend as much as they want for a refuah. So too, with tzedaka. A person can give all his money away because nowadays, tzedaka is an atonement for our sins.

Quote:

Though this might amount to a very considerable sum, he need not fear violating the injunction that14 “one should not extravagantly distribute more than one fifth [of one’s property to charity],” for this kind of giving cannot be termed “extravagant distribution,” since he does it to redeem himself from fasting and affliction.

This is no less necessary than healing his body or his other needs, in which one does not restrict one’s spending to a fifth of his means.

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=7936

↑ busymom ↓

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 4:18 pm

motek, although that's a good point - that giving more than the required amount of tzeddakah will atone for sins - I don't think it addresses the OP's question. She wanted to know if the money she gives for tzeddakah will be subtracted from the money decreed for her on R"H.
I think most ppl will agree that a set amount is determined on r"h, from which one is required to give 10%. If she chooses to use some - or even most - of the remaining $$ for tzeddakah, perhaps to atone for sins, that's very nice. but I don't think she can expect that money to be miraculously replaced b/c it's tzeddakah, thinking it won't affect how much she must have this year.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 6:19 pm

busymom wrote:

motek, although that's a good point - that giving more than the required amount of tzeddakah will atone for sins - I don't think it addresses the OP's question.

I was responding to chen's post.

Quote:

She wanted to know if the money she gives for tzeddakah will be subtracted from the money decreed for her on R"H.

How could it be subtracted when it says this is the only thing you can test Hashem with?

Quote:

The Gemara in Taanis (9A) explains the uniqueness of this mitzvah. The words, "ASER TIASER", "Tithe, you shall surely tithe", are redundant in order to hint to us that if we do tithe (ASER) our income properly, then we shall become (TITASHER) wealthy. The Gemara goes a little further, stating that the mitzvah of Maaser is so important that Hashem actually encourages us to test Him. If we give Maaser properly, we can actually wait and see if Gwd will reward us with more money back.

Why does Hashem encourage us to test him in the performance of this particular mitzvah? Nowhere else in the Torah does Hashem say that we should perform the mitzvah and 'test' Hashem for the beneficial results!

The "Oneg Yom Tov" explains that with all mitzvos in the Torah, Hashem does not guarantee to reward us in this world for the same reason that caused Yaakov to be afraid of Esav. Yaakkov says "Katonti Mikal Hachasadim," "Perhaps my merits have been dwarfed due to all the kindness Hashem has already performed for me." Rashi explains there that Yaakov was fearful that he might have sinned one time too many, and despite Hashem's guarantee that He would protect him, perhaps his demerits mitigated some of his merits. This is to say that generally speaking, as we all know, reward for our spiritual merits are paid to us when we finish our work at the end of our lives. Hashem does offer some fringe benefits, but they are not to be relied upon in this world. This is because Hashem counts our demerits against them, as He would rather not detract from the more eternal rewards in Olam Haba, and therefore, He detracts from the more ephemeral rewards in this world.

However, when it comes to Tzedaka, this rule does not apply. So important is this mitzvah of giving Tzedaka to others, Hashem decided that the reward for this mitzvah will not be affected by any aveirah. If a person is willing to selflessly give back one tenth of all that he earns, then he is demonstrating a tremendous amount of Emunah in Hashem and an understanding of the true 'value' of money. In response, HaShem actually gives him a return on his investment right away, Midah Kneged Midah.

↑ busymom

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 7:49 pm

I understand from the quoted text that one can test Hashem when tithing money; meaning if he gives the required 10% he will have hatzlachah.
Are you saying that one can test Hashem with any amount - even giving beyond his means - and still expect that "assurance" of financial success? Or is your point that it's praiseworthy to choose to use some of one's "spending money" (meaning what he has left after tzeddakah) also for charity, without expecting financial compensation?
Though I'm not a scholar, I understand the Gemara to be talking specifically about maaser. I don't think a person of average means can give 50% of his income for charity, believing that he is "testing" Hashem and will anyways have enough for daily expenses.

↑ Motek

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 8:58 pm

busymom wrote:

I understand from the quoted text that one can test Hashem when tithing money; meaning if he gives the required 10% he will have hatzlachah.

good point

Quote:

Are you saying that one can test Hashem with any amount - even giving beyond his means - and still expect that "assurance" of financial success?

that's what I've learned but you're right that the above quote is specifically about maaser
I'd need another source about giving beyond maaser.

TzenaRena ↓

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 10:41 pm

The Rebbe always brings down this verse; " u'nesatem chamishis l'pharoh, v'arbah hayados yihyeh lochem "( Vayigash 47:24). Yosef instructed the Egyptians that during the years of plenty, they were to give over one fifth of their produce to Pharoh's campaign for storing the food for the upcoming years of hunger, and the remaining four fifths would remain theirs to use as they saw fit.

This is the source of giving a "choimesh" for Tzedaka, and the four fifths that remain are yours to enjoy. However, the Rebbe brings out a tremendous chiddush in these words, "Arbah HaYados yihyeh lochem", and says that if a Yid apportions a certain amount to Tzedaka, Hashem will ensure that he will have four times that amount!

I remember learning this in a sicha or listening to it on tape. I'll check with someone for the exact place. Smile

↑ TzenaRena

Wed, Nov 08 2006, 12:59 pm

Here is a source that I was referred to by a Mashpiah in Chassidus - Sefer Hamaamorim 5701 - pg. 88. It's the maamar "Aser T'aser" from the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe.

In the begining of the maamar, the Fr. Rebbe brings the maamar"razal Aser b'shvil shetisasher, from Taanis 9a., and the story from the Sifri about the person who inherited a field from his father who gave maaser and the field produced much more. when the son neglected to give maaser, it yielded only one tenth of what it had previously. His relatives came to comfort and also to rebuke him and said that when a person gives maaser properly, the person is the owner, and HKBH is the Kohen, but when he doesn't, then HKBH is the owner, and the person is the Kohen that recieves only a tenth of what it was possible to profit.

The maamar continues: the mitzvah of Maaser is different than the rest of the mitzvos, which we are to perform without anticipation of s'char at all, as it says "Don't be as the servants who serve the Master on the condition to receive a reward, but be as the servants who serve the master not on condition to receive a reward., especially in mattters of Olam HaZeh, since "In this world there is not the reward for a mitzvah" e.I.we only receive it in the next world.

[ explanatory note: It's explained in other places in Chassidus that this means that the actual reward we get in Olam HaBah, because nothing in this world, even the greatest pleasures of this world don't suffice to reward for even one mitzvah. The "Orech Yomim b'yminah, Osher v'kavod b'smolah" the yiudim gashmiim are just things that enable us to observe Torah and Mitzvos properly, with menuchas hanefesh, etc., but they aren't part of the true schar, which can only be appreciated and do justice to the mitzvah in Olam HaBah.]

However, with the mitzvah of Maaser not only do we receive a gashmiusdik reward in Olam HaZeh, aside from the reward in the Supernal World as in all mitzvos, but we are also permitted to test Hashem, as explained in the Gemara from the Yenuka of Reish Lakish who said to R. Yochanan ... R. Hoshaiah said to him: except for this as it says : Bring all the Maaser to the storage house, and there will be food in My House, and prove me please with this , says Hashem the L-rd of Hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of Heaven and will pour out brochah ad bli dai.
What is the meaning of ad bli dai? Said Rami Bar Chamah, said Rav until your lips will swell from saying "dai" - enough.

That is, that the mitzvah of separating maaser from profits earned.. it's reward is as all mitzvos in Olam HaBah, additional to the schar in Olam Hazeh in Gashmius, and it is even permissible to test (Hashem) with it., and the Shiur (measurement) of mitzvas maaser is CHOMESH FROM THE CAPITAL and MAASER FROM THE PROFIT., and this is "Aser b'shvil shetis'asher"

in the footnote, (the Rebbe writes the footnotes on the Frierdiker Rebbe's maamar): Chomesh etc. and Maaser: In Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah beginning of Ch. 149 and in the Shach (Sifsei Cohen) there, two ways are brought: Chomesh from the capital and the profit, or Maaser from the capital and the profit. And what is written here is, it seems, a hanhagah(custom) that has been instituted.