is the bais yaakov system failing us???

amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 8:28 am

I've been a junior high limudei kodesh teacher for many years. I understand that the bais yaakov system in europe was started primarily to prevent girls from pursuing other intelectual pusuits and thereby going OTD.

I'm going to venture to say that nowadays BY is having the opposite effect.

We have placed academic standards in limudei kodesh so high, that those who can't reach them, suffer with low self-esteem and don't succeed academically or socially because of it.

I've seen so many girls go trough the system who will make wonderful wives and mothers, but feel so low about themselves because they have a hard time reading a rashi.

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Even if this is not the case, WHY DOES A NICE CAPABLE "GESHIKTE" GIRL, NEED TO READ A RAMBAN? Unless she I'd planning on teaching, of what practical use is it? Its great for students like me who thrived on academics, but I'm pretty sure there are an equal or even higher number who are being turned off by academics. These are not boys who have a cjyuv in limud torah!!!

Are we losing more girls than we're saving?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 8:54 am

There was always a lot wrong with the system, and there always will be.
I think it's time for major changes.
While many go OTD the bigger problem is the thousands of girls that have the worst years of their lives in high school, and try to forget all about it as they get married, and hopefully enjoy life.
Maybe we need to rethink what we are doing, and teach the girls practical lessons they will need for life.
Such as how to get along, how to manage money and a home, how to succeed.
What is the worst thing about the whole school system?
Money.
The teachers don't get paid well, they are also mostly inexperienced or elderly, and they are not reaching out to the kids. Having one good teacher once in a few years is the best anyone can hope for.
Meanwhile the girls are overburdened with homework and tests, which they will mostly promptly forget as soon as they are outa there. They suffer miserably, some more than others, and are expected to do well even if they are incapable of memorizing so much stuff.
While the smarter ones enjoy the stimulation, who said they have to know how to dissect a Rashi as their goal in life?
Women should know how to run a home wisely, and girls should enjoy their high school years before being bogged down with a life of precious children and never ending housework.
High school could be inspiring, enjoyable, and so much more useful than what it is today.

PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:03 am

This should be really interesting.
I graduated h.s. about 30 years ago. And I did learn how to read meforshim. Very helpful for teaching. But honestly, if we're going to learn Chumash from a mikraos gedolos - this wasn't exactly Monroe - then why not learn how to read everything in it?
And if the meforshim are taught in a way that makes us appreciate the gadlus of the Torah and the chachamim, I don't see what's wrong.

What I do wish we would have learned is more practical halacha. B"H my girls have got that. BUT and this is a big BUT: it's as iimportant if not more to know the WHY as the HOW. We got LOTS of that. Not just in the course of chumash but in many classes. And B"H my kids get that too.

Something that was stressed to us in sem in one of the teaching classes was "permeating goals." There were about a dozen or so, and one day I'm going to go back to my notes and dig them up. These were overarching themes and ideas to discuss and emphasize when possible. (Lots from Rav Hirsch, IIRC, interestingly enough.)

One more not so random thought, the answer given to the eternal question of why we needed seminary: if we were going to go on to higher education we needed to see that there is a more sophisticated level of learning and understanding Torah and Torah thought. I think that with all the general studies academics , well, I wouldn't say that kodesh should be as rigorous but it has have depth and be meaningful.

My hat's (figuratively) off to all you great ladies in the Teachers' Room, whether AM or PM studies. Thanks for everything!

sneakermom ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:56 am

This might be going off on a tangent here but I have been thinking a lot about the system in general. My daughter is a very bright kid and has an innate love for learning. But instead of really learning she has the dreary task of memorizing meelim day in and out. She hates hates hates Chumash. This is a child that if someone would teach her the chumash analytically she would gobble it up. But no. Chumash is rote. Chumash is misery. And she hates school.

Instead of children connecting to the timely lessons of the chumash the child is grappling with memorizing her meelim some of them a paragraph long.

The funny thing is that she understands the posuk when reading inside. So why give her the added task of translating the entire passuk into another language? What does that have to do with Chumash?

Also. I see no projects. I see no inspiration. I see no room for reaching out to individual styles of learning. Sigh. In the english dept they happen to be better with that. And you can really see the difference.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:13 am

The schools have to give the girls the opportunity to learn. A young person will not reach out to pick the hardest subjects. What of the girl that wants, to learn Rashi? I am glad the schools are appealing to the brighter girls. I don't want my daughter to be with an untrained brain. Learning to think is the skill. Learning to memorize is the skill.

I am really glad that the BY schools are run by others. I don't want them to bee feel good schools. I want the reaching of goals.

What percentage of BY girls are OTD?

My daughter is in a BY school. Her teachers are bright and wonderful. If my daughter only uses her skills she learns to raise othergirls in turn the way she us raised, I will thank Hashem.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:30 am

I am glad that I was given the skills to know how to learn and understand Torah, on an increasingly challenging level. Girls don't have a chiyuv to learn Torah, but the Torah is still equally ours. Why shouldn't we be equipped to delve into it as much as we individually care to?

I would feel like I was depriving my daughter if she didn't have a strong textual background. I do agree with sneakermom that a lot of the methods are silly and do backfire, causing girls to resent learning. I also struggled with peirush hamilim as a student. It was a relief when I was finally old enough that there was minimal emphasis on translating individual words. We need to teach girls to think and be analytical, not memorize a string of words in foreign languages.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:50 am

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Very unlikely.

I dont know about the actual statistics, but I was one of those turned off due to my school experience. my teachers would come in, teach, and leave. if you were not one of "them" they didnt have the time of day for you. I didnt learn anything about the beauty of anything- it was "this is what it is and you dont ask questions. if you DO, you dont belong in BY."

I struggled to get over a 65 in most of my limudei kodesh classes, and I only remember 2 teachers (out of 14 subjects!!) trying to work with me. none of the others even gave me the time of day. all they would tell my parents was "shes really smart, shes just not reaching her potential." by the way, I have a sister who b"h did really well in school, and had 95% of the same teachers, so I got the feeling (true or not) that they thought I would be the same.

can one of the teachers here please tell me where all that memorization has gotten me in life? where have all those chumash and navi classes gotten me? yes, its good to know, but how practical is it? from what I understand, my hs now has a home ec. class (once a week). now, thats great, dont get me wrong, im not knocking it, but why only once a week? teach the girls how to cook basics, how to sew, about getting along with someone, about shalom bayis, about being a good wife and mom....and shouldnt it be just as important as memorizing all of those things and learning all of those things?

sorry for the long post, I guess I still have a lot against the system. im sending my daughter (almost 3) to a new, small school, and im hoping this school will lilve up to its ideal, which is to be everything I didnt get....

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:53 am

Frenchfry wrote:

Amother, would you be so glad that the schools were catering to the brighter girls if your DD weren't one of them? I was also one of the brighter girls and loved my LK classes, but now I see very little relevance that they have in my life, with the exception of teaching. I think in my seventh grade class, for every two girls who are enjoying the stimulation there are at least three who are frustrated, and worst of all, suffereng socially b/c they think others see them as "dumb". All for what purpose????

I think you are referring to me. My daughter is not a gifted child. She has been in remedial classes and has had tutors throughout her life. If she absorbs a small precentage of what is offered and in turn can raise her daughters to aspire to learn to the level Hashem fashioned them, I will feel my tuition is well spent. I don't want the schools dummied down. I want students like my daughter to strive. If my daughter comes home with a "C" and she did her best, I am proud. I don't need her to make "A"s so her alf esteem is improved.

Her self esteem is just fine. She is eidle and has a strong grounding. I could not do this without BY and the dedicated teachers.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Very unlikely.

I am the amother against changing the system. Why dint though want to be able to think for yourself? The memorization is part of the grounding. No one specifically taught me how to get along with others. It is a skill set th pick up. Your version would have women as two dimensional characters who only play nice and keep house.

Don't you want to have a brain that thinks and can participate in the beauty of the Torah? My son also does not like the rote learning. I explained to him, it is like reading. You can't progress without learning letters and sounds. He understood the analogy.

Maybe you think the Satmar system is better. There are plenty of really capable woman who after handicapped because of the lack of opportunity you so disparage.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Very unlikely.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Very unlikely.

No one is saying to drop learning altogether, they're just saying that it's time to ease up on the girls and concentrate more on halacha and practical subjects than chumash.
I was the girl at the top of the class; I was editor in chief of the school yearbook. Surprisingly, I was also the girl who hated chumash and loved limudei chol. Today I barely remember any of my chumash; however, I do remember the life lessons learned from those few special teachers.
Today I am also the mother of a child who is hearing impaired. I am terrified of the day he will enter school and daven every day that by the time he is in yeshiva they will have worked out a better system. I know this discussion is about girls, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you. You absolutely do not need all the memorizing in order to learn and grow.