What has worked for teens that "don't believe..........

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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Do you advocate forcing a 14 year old to daven a minimum if she doesn't want to?

Do you advocate bribing a 14 year old to daven?

35%

[ 7 ]

Do you advocate ignoring a 14 year old who refuses to daven?

65%

[ 13 ]

Total Votes : 20

amother ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 9:33 am

I am looking for advice on a course of action to take for a 14 year old girl who is saying "how do I know there's a Hashem..........., who is very bright and artistic but always hated school, davening and hebrew studies? Any advice that worked for others?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 9:51 am

amother wrote:

I want to add that this 14 year old has dreams of Hollywood stardom- How does one react to this?

chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 9:54 am

Tough call.

Is everyone around her doing "everything"?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 10:03 am

To Sara G-
Ofcourse there are levels of observance, but in which family does "everyone" do "everything"?????????????????????

But to respond to your question, by and large, everything and then some.

MOM222 ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 10:20 am

It says `Lo leshma ba leshma´. So by bribing you hope that it will become leshma.
If you were to ask on a boy under bar mitzvah I would say to ignore. However since this boy is 14 and has a chiuv to daven, bribing would be your next option.

Davening is also something that if you dont do on a regular basis its very hard to start again. So hopefully by bribing you would make it a regular part of his day.

Much Hatzlacha.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 10:41 am

It's a girl.

↑ MOM222 ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 10:59 am

OOPS

Gotta revote, for a girl I would ignore. Daving is not so important for a girl as for a boy.

busymom ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 11:10 am

Do you think that she "doesn't believe" b/c it's the best excuse to give herself to be able to fantasize about another lifestyle, or does she truly have doubts and questions that need to be answered?

If it's the former, I can't advise you, but if she's an intelligent girl who really WANTS to believe, but first wants some questions answered, then you should encourage her to voice her questions, assuring her that anything she asks is ok, and then get back to her with answers, after you or dh does some research. If she'd prefer, you can find a qualified person who can have such a discussion with her.
There are many beautiful ways through which one can "prove" the existence of Hashem and the Truth of the Torah, and I think it's too bad that such discussions are usually reserved for kiruv work and rarely heard by FFB children, who would benefit from them too. (For example, in all religions, followers had to be believe a single person's claim: JC in Christianity, Allah... all had "revelations" that e/o had to believe, w/o being able to verify the truth of it. Only in Judaism do we find a "revelation", the Torah being given at Mt Sinai, that occured in the presence of an ENTIRE NATION! So in order for Yiddishkeit to be passed down throught the generations, there had to be a point when this story that involved hundreds of thousands of ppl was believed - b/c they all witnessed it! No one could make this up and try to convince ppl that a whole nation had seen s/th if no one ever did! Even if Hashem usually communicated only with Moshe, the Yidden didn't have to take his word for it - they all received "proof" themselves at Har Sinai.)
A man I know once spent 2 hrs with a young girl whose parents were at their wits end, b/c she was having doubts and they didn't know how to deal with it. He answered all her questions - and then some - and her father later told him that she came home a different child, calmer and happier than she'd been in a while. such deep thinking children often end up having a closer relationship with Hashem than many of their peers once their questions are addressed.
I would also recommend the book "The Thinking jewish Teenager's Guide to Life" by Akiva Tatz. Hatzlachah!

↑ busymom

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 11:16 am

I just want to add that the entire davening discussion really isn't getting at the core of the issue. This girl is saying "how do I know that there's a Hashem?" THAT'S the question that needs to be addressed. Fortunately, with all the kiruv that goes on in the world today, there are many ppl and books that can provide answers.

momofgirls

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 11:21 am

I would ignore it & be supportive, I would also find a good therapist/rav for her to talk & see if there is somthing more & like busymom said to answer her questions. I don't know were you live but some cities do have places were your child has a place to shine & work on her talents.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 2:20 pm

When my dd was 11 she had so many questions. Her q's weren't "should I believe?" rather explain some of the beliefs.For example "why do we make a bracha on clothing if it came from a sin?""Who says I'm ready at 12 to be resposnible?" We had a tough time. Everyone we thought of for her to speak to she rejected. Her basic premise being that adults make kids feel stupid. She heard a tape from one rav & like it (funny w/ a message)Older dd asked if she would speak to him. 11yr old agreed prob thinking she'd never meet him. Well he came to our city & he spoke to her like a regular sem girl. He answered her q's (made me feel stupid that some of the answers were so basic).
My opinion- it's great to try to get ger to daven but there is already stress going on. Make it clear what you want but don't have fights over it. Try to find s/o she would speak to, not a teacher or anyone else that would be an authority to her. Most importantly let her know that it ok to ask questions. While we work on the answers we still do what we are "supposed" to, but it's ok to ask.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 3:20 pm

Maybe she would be shayach to one of these kiruv programs, like what Rabbi Friedman has in Minnesota (Bais Chana).

He doesn't assume anyone takes anything for granted!

TzenaRena ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 3:47 pm

amother, is this 14 year old your daughter? If she is, there is a lot you can do by demonstrating your own emunah in Hashem constantly. Make sure she hears you talking about Hashem.

React to the happenings in your own life with constant recognition of Hashem, and letting your children see/hear it. When something good happens, let the children - younger and teenagers -hear you express an emotional thanks to Hashem. or say something like "Hashem is so good to me. He gave me such wonderful children." or "I had such a great day, Hashem is so kind to me".

If you are going through a test or challenge let them hear you relying on Hashem to guide you and get you through it . Say "I'm sure Hashem will help us through this, He always does." When Hashem is not hidden in your thoughts, but exists in your own life in a revealed state, He will be revealed and exist openly to your children as well.

Sofia2

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 3:54 pm

Absolutely nothing will be accomplished by bribing this girl. DO NOT FEEL THREATENED BY HER! This is the age where she is exploring different options in life. Let her. I know it's hard, but as a
former 'rebel', I can tell you that only the families' love and acceptance will eventually make her realize the truth.
Please do not be hard on her.

happymom

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 3:57 pm

I think what u can do is BE A GOOD EXAMPLE. let her see YOU daven, and you do whats right. u can tell her she knows what u think and what is right and she is a big girl now and she has a choice to listen to hear yeitzer tov or yeitzer harah. sometimes the yeitzer harah is very smart and tries to make us question hashem. theres nothing wrong with telling her this. shell hear u. also, learning tanya, and about "how do we know there is a hashem etc is very helpful.... there ARE andwers to her questions and its importnat she find those answers!

S.Shcwartz

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 4:07 pm

the organization MASK can help a great deal. And yes, please give her the support and love she deserves, it is so important for her now. She is going through a phase of doubt and she needs to know the answers. She will be happy when she does since Chazal tell us, "Ein simcha kehataras hasfeikos".

Motek ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 5:19 pm

1) Jews are "believers, children of believers." Therefore, your daughter believes. Your approach is different if this is the premise you work with.

2) What is the nature of her relationship with you and your husband? If you do "everything" and "then some," where is she getting dreams about Hollywood from?

chavamom ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 5:38 pm

I highly recommend R. Zecharia Greenwald's book, the title is something like "Preparing Your Child for Success". He deals with this situation and the short answer is he does NOT recommend forcing a child over bar/bat mitzvah to daven. More than that, you need to read the book.

↑ chavamom ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 5:44 pm

Motek wrote:

2) What is the nature of her relationship with you and your husband? If you do "everything" and "then some," where is she getting dreams about Hollywood from?

You think that no kid of very frum parents dreams about Hollywood? If you believe this, I've got (more than!) a few Beis Ya'akov girls for you to meet....and many of their parents are quite "frum" in all meanings of the word. Sometimes it is precisely b/c they are trying to find their own identity and rejecting what their parents stand for that they latch onto this. I've known a number of girls from kollel families who pick this type of idealization b/c, at least in their words, they are rejecting the financial poverty they grew up with and often they report viewing their mother's lives as full of drudgery.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 7:40 pm

How do very frum kids know about Hollywood to the extent that they dream about it?

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