Table maybe you know your "old money" from the movies.
Some of us...ahem....either know them in real life or are them in real life.
It's not like the movies.
You used the word "homespun" and "neglected" in another post vis a vis Chardal.
I would say that there are societies in which what you consider normal is considered, let's say somewhat "neglected".
There are societies where dressing in a certain way is not "proving" anything. Would you say that in Israeli charedi circles where no one - men or women - would ever wear anything with denim fabric? That they are trying to "prove something" or are nouveau riche? Go to Bnai brak and see how top notch many of those girls look. It's just what is considered normal in their society. Same goes for certain other, frum but not charedi societies. I don't know what to call them so that you and others don't get offended. If I say sophisticated then some of you take it as an insult to yourselves. If I say "upper class" then you make fun and call them "nouveau riche" while many have been monied for several generations. If I say "elite" then once again some of you start pouting. So call them as you wish, but they exist in EY (and abroad) in many places. It seems though that some of the active posters on this list are just not familiar with those groups.
Table - I'm guessing that you aren't part of those societies nor do you really know them that well. In fact I remember that you once posted that you had at a time lived among such women and didn't at all feel comfortable among them or part of them. Maybe that's part of it.
As for men and aesthetics, the fact that the women are the ones shopping in the domestica stores doesn't mean that the men don't appreciate the results and the efforts. You know?: The women are the ones in the dress and shoe stores and in the hair salons but the men or at least some of them truly appreciate the results and the efforts.
It's all in what your society is used to. Maybe I'm talking about a bit more of an upper class society than some of you are used to? A bit more sophisticated possibly.
You are getting extremely defensive.
And yes, people enjoy beautiful aesthetics. But most husbands are more concerned about the health of their wives then about how lovely the napkins are folded.
I still can not comprehend how YOU fail to see the problem in telling your daughters to eat in the kitchen so they don't embarrass the guests. Either the guests fail to see what is on your daughter's plate, and so why would it matter if your daughter spread chumus or peanut butter or something similar on their bread (put it, in a pretty little glass dish for grief sake!) or they would NOTICE the fact that your girls weren't eating a main course served from a platter or plated as you have explained.
Moreover, to worry about a gossip stating your daughter has no portion control for eating a normal piece of chicken, is to condemn your entire community as being guilty of l"h. Why in the world anyone would care two figs for what this woman would say is beyond me. Ludicrous don't you think? If such a bore entertained me with her "comments" I'd start putting food on HER plate. Each time this bore made a comment on my child's eating or my husband's eating or someone else's eating I "serve her" a helping of rice or whatever. And if she asked what I was doing I would say "I'm sorry, I thought you asked for more food..." IF I didn't tell her straight out "I really don't care what other people eat. I'm not sure why anyone does..."
Table maybe you know your "old money" from the movies.
Some of us...ahem....either know them in real life or are them in real life..
The stories of your circle and your home life sound far from aristocracy to me. I am not 'old money', but neither are you, I would guess.
freidasima wrote:
It's not like the movies.
You used the word "homespun" and "neglected" in another post vis a vis Chardal.
I would say that there are societies in which what you consider normal is considered, let's say somewhat "neglected".
There are societies where dressing in a certain way is not "proving" anything. Would you say that in Israeli charedi circles where no one - men or women - would ever wear anything with denim fabric? That they are trying to "prove something" or are nouveau riche? Go to Bnai brak and see how top notch many of those girls look. It's just what is considered normal in their society. Same goes for certain other, frum but not charedi societies. I don't know what to call them so that you and others don't get offended. If I say sophisticated then some of you take it as an insult to yourselves. If I say "upper class" then you make fun and call them "nouveau riche" while many have been monied for several generations. If I say "elite" then once again some of you start pouting. So call them as you wish, but they exist in EY (and abroad) in many places. It seems though that some of the active posters on this list are just not familiar with those groups.
Table - I'm guessing that you aren't part of those societies nor do you really know them that well. In fact I remember that you once posted that you had at a time lived among such women and didn't at all feel comfortable among them or part of them. Maybe that's part of it..
I lived for a while in a very yuppified environment, very upper class bourgeous. Not aristocracy, not 'old money' (if that even exists in Israel). And yes, I felt very uncomfortable. Not for me, thank you.
freidasima wrote:
As for men and aesthetics, the fact that the women are the ones shopping in the domestica stores doesn't mean that the men don't appreciate the results and the efforts. You know?: The women are the ones in the dress and shoe stores and in the hair salons but the men or at least some of them truly appreciate the results and the efforts.
And no, the men are not gay.
The men don't care for the details. They don't care if you are wearing the latest fashion or not. Indeed, there are many fashions that men even dislike (grey nails is often one of them). And still women go for them.
If women really only set tables and got dressed in honour of their husbands, they would choose the china patterns their dh likes best, rather than what they like. And paint the dining room the colour he wants. And wear their hair only in the style their husbands like (even if it's 20 yrs out of fashion). Etc.
But no, most women enjoy all this stuff, decorating and table setting and fashion, and make choices to please themselves. Most women know they will get a lot more enjoyment out of a nice table than their dh, so they don't defer to his opinion,etc.
Most women know they will get a lot more enjoyment out of a nice table than their dh, so they don't defer to his opinion,etc.
Well, almost. My dh strongly dislikes drinking out of a glass goblet. Meshigas? Maybe. But next to his setting, comes a 7 ounce disposable plastic cup, right where a crystal goblet would stand... And that is when I actually SET the table. Otherwise, I bring him his the plastic cup when he wants to drink after washing for the challah!!
How much money are we talking here to be considered the "upper class" of society?
My parents, now retired, still own a few homes (no mortgage involved) one of the homes is over a million dollars, the other over three quarters of a million, and the one they live in, closer to half a million. Also, they have zero debt, with a comfortable bank and savings account. They are both highly educated, and very much earned every penny they have.
Are they of the upper class?
Granted, they are seniors, they are not involved in the newest fashions. They don't own designers clothes, although they may have nice home appliances. They go to the thrift shop quite often. They do have a maid service come almost every day, but they are older, and it's only the two of them, so I don't think they make that much of a mess. They don't necessarily have a large silver and crystal collection. They would rather hand-made copper or brass items, that have history to them.
Do they fall under the category of sophistication or is their lifestyle too mundane and inferior for such a class?
amother I don't know what country you are in but the numbers you are describing, certainly for people my age, is not at all strange in certain sectors of Israeli society. I wonder if you realize that your average four room (three bedroom) apartment on Dubnov street in the center of Tel Aviv or a decent house in Talbiyeh is worth today upwards of two and a half million dollars? One apartment or one house? Any house in Savyon, Ceasarea, Any of the new apartment towers being built in tel aviv, Hertzlia pituach or some areas of Jerusalem are worth much more than the numbers you mention. And I mean the prices of all those houses combined!
So absolute numbers don't say much.
You are also talking aobut people in their what, 70s? A bit of a different lifestyle often than those in their 40s.
I'm talking about people in their 40s or early 50s who do care about many of the things you claim your parents don't care about. Not everyone has to love china or crystal but don't sell men so short. The way some of you describe them, they are half gorillas who wouldn't know what's put in front of them, it should just be a hunk of meat and a lot of it.
I think that's sort of unfair to men to describe them as such boors who have no aeshtetics and don't care about anything much except basic creature comforts.
Anyone else thinking about LuAnn and "Money can't buy you class"? FS, you remind me of her.
So my friend comes from an old money family. They have a large apartment on the UWS (think 5 bedrooms at least), a large house (7 bedrooms upstairs and a whole bunch more), really a large house with 3 acres of land and a pool etc...
Their dining room table is ROUND. They are the classiest people I know. If you met them on the street you wouldn't know they have money. They are refined and wonderful and have amazing middos. They have plenty of food and let their daughters eat it :-D.
Class has nothing to do with money. Class has nothing to do with table settings. Class has nothing to do with fashion or food portions or skills at homemaking or professional standing.
Class has to do with how one makes other people feel good about themselves, respecting and caring for other people, including one's family and friends.
Nothing wrong with a round table. But even with a round table where the ba'al habayis sits becomes the head of the table. That's where everything starts. With the ba'al habayis.
HR what you write sounds good, but it's just not precise. Because you can make someone feel good about themselves and respect people and have nice midos, but still have absolutely no class. There are measurements of class because we don't live in a solely spiritual world but in a physical one as well. And having status, money, poseesions or all three things don't preclude having good midos. You make it sound as if it does.
Housing - yes there are people living in such houses who have no debts on them whatsoever. People have this vision of EY as if it is this poverty stricken country where everyone struggles. If it were like that then there wouldn't be the protests about the "haves" and the "have nots".
There are a lot more "haves" than people might think.
HR what you write sounds good, but it's just not precise. Because you can make someone feel good about themselves and respect people and have nice midos, but still have absolutely no class. There are measurements of class because we don't live in a solely spiritual world but in a physical one as well. And having status, money, poseesions or all three things don't preclude having good midos. You make it sound as if it does.
TRUE class is what I stated. Nor did I state wealth WOULD interfere with true class. I merely stated that wealth and all I named were NOT true class.
I don't think Israel is a country with only poor people. I know several families in Israel who are very well off. I just know a lot of people who have million dollar homes, but have huge mortgages. They appear to have a lot more money because of their homes and cars, but they have incredible debt on these items.
Class has nothing to do with money. Class has nothing to do with table settings. Class has nothing to do with fashion or food portions or skills at homemaking or professional standing.
Class has to do with how one makes other people feel good about themselves, respecting and caring for other people, including one's family and friends.
The woman I'm referencing is a former countess who has no class. She wrote a book about manners and a song called money can't buy you class. Awful song from woman with zero.
Class has nothing to do with money. Class has nothing to do with table settings. Class has nothing to do with fashion or food portions or skills at homemaking or professional standing.
Class has to do with how one makes other people feel good about themselves, respecting and caring for other people, including one's family and friends.
The woman I'm referencing is a former countess who has no class. She wrote a book about manners and a song called money can't buy you class. Awful song from woman with zero.
PM me about her book? And I agree, money can't buy class.
saw it wasn't a "try".
In households like ours and like many where there is special derekh eretz given to the balabus, wherever he sits becomes the head of the table.
My parents had a round table and my father had a set place and that was always the head of the table. So it is in many families that I have seen who keep like our shita and have a round table.
Obviously whatever class these people are, they don't keep to this shita!
