I use first person to talk to Rabbonim. 3rd person in English is just wierd.
What is Saw saying?
That third person in English is weird. You don't say to a teacher: Please can Mrs. Cohen allow me to leave the room.
You say: Mrs. Cohen can I please leave the room
Tamiri around here, including in religious elementary schools up till today, teachers may be known by their first name but ONLY with the appelation " hamoreh" or "hamorah" (the teacher) said first. No one is called "Miri". She is "hamorah miri". And when spoken to she is spoken to in the third person.
When speaking to the teacher miri one says: "Aval Hamorah Miri amra" "But the teacher Miri said".
Still used today (or at least as of this past June) in schools throughout yerushalayim and other cities.
For those of you who cringe, I remind you once again that there are an equal number of people including Yidden who when hearing about making children wash their hands with a strange two handled cup before eating bread, and teaching them that they MUST first wash a specific hand and then the other...twice...and then dry them and say a ritual forumlation...and that they MUST be silent from that moment until after stating a ritual formulation over bread which is first salted, AND that this holds true from age THREE and up....they CRINGE as well.
I start out using the 3rd person when speaking to a rav or rebbetzin, but switch off to saying "you". I use the 3rd person enough that the other party (hopefully) realizes that I'm breaking my teeth trying to sound respectful.
I also try to refer to my mechutan and machitainiste as such to others, out of respect.
Funny story - at a simcha, a Chassidishe Rebbetzin asked if the seat next to me was taken, and I said that the next seat over was available, but that "my machitainiste is sitting here". Well, this rebbetzin has known my machitainiste for many decades, and I am the young woman among the three of us. So the rebbetzin says to my machitainiste, 'Ooooh, you should hear how she says 'my machitainiste is sitting here'!"
Random memory: there are rabbanim and rebbetzins who have told me to call them mister or mrs (with or without surname), instead of rabbi/mister rabbi, or rabbanit/rebbetzin/mrs r.
One chassidishe rabbanit even tells me to call her by her first name! which really is hard for me, especially as she is a grandmother! but she is sooo modest and discrete and unassuming, despite her husband leads a huge kehila.
DH also knows rabbanim who say "just mister" or "just moreh" (at school). Some also prefer doctor or professor, especially the old Europe style.
He knows a rabbi who wants "doctor rav" instead of rabbi, or mister chief rabbi (which he is).
Some like reb, reb Firstname (some of these ones call any man reb Firstname).
I use first person to talk to Rabbonim. 3rd person in English is just wierd.
I also thought it was weird when I first heard my DH talk to his Rebbe like this, we were not taught to speak this way in school as far as I can remember, but obviously my DH was taught this way. Perhaps because it is obviously weird or different (to put it in a nicer way), it becomes clear that the speaker is doing it out of respect.
Ruchel, wouldn't that be Rav Doctor or Rabbi Doctor?
I once called my husband's Rosh Yeshiva Rebbe, because my husband calls him Rebbe. He gave me a sharp look. Oops, I was supposed to say The Rosh Yeshiva.
Ruchel, wouldn't that be Rav Doctor or Rabbi Doctor?
I once called my husband's Rosh Yeshiva Rebbe, because my husband calls him Rebbe. He gave me a sharp look. Oops, I was supposed to say The Rosh Yeshiva.
Growing up, our Rabbi was also a phd doctor. We called him Rabbi.
Tamiri around here, including in religious elementary schools up till today, teachers may be known by their first name but ONLY with the appelation " hamoreh" or "hamorah" (the teacher) said first. No one is called "Miri". She is "hamorah miri". And when spoken to she is spoken to in the third person.
When speaking to the teacher miri one says: "Aval Hamorah Miri amra" "But the teacher Miri said".
Still used today (or at least as of this past June) in schools throughout yerushalayim and other cities.
For those of you who cringe, I remind you once again that there are an equal number of people including Yidden who when hearing about making children wash their hands with a strange two handled cup before eating bread, and teaching them that they MUST first wash a specific hand and then the other...twice...and then dry them and say a ritual forumlation...and that they MUST be silent from that moment until after stating a ritual formulation over bread which is first salted, AND that this holds true from age THREE and up....they CRINGE as well.
It's all what you are used to.
there is ritual, and there is cultural behaviour. for example, hindus not eating any meat products is a ritual. Hindus treating certain people as "untouchables" and mistreating widows - that is a cultural behaviour.
Raisin if you want ritual then people who aren't frum or aren't jewish also cringe when they see frum yidden not sit next to their wives in separate seats on a bus (Gur), or have mehadrin buses in general (not halocho or ritual) or think it is so strange that chassidim wear "funny clothing" (not halocho or ritual either actually).
it's all where one comes from. to me it's totally natural to speak to a rov or a respected person in the third person.
And yes Isramom I can see the expression on the rosh yeshiva's face if you said "rebbe"!!! That's only for his talmidim. Otherwise it's "kvod rosh hayeshiva" in hebrew.
Raisin if you want ritual then people who aren't frum or aren't jewish also cringe when they see frum yidden not sit next to their wives in separate seats on a bus (Gur), or have mehadrin buses in general (not halocho or ritual) or think it is so strange that chassidim wear "funny clothing" (not halocho or ritual either actually).
it's all where one comes from. to me it's totally natural to speak to a rov or a respected person in the third person.
And yes Isramom I can see the expression on the rosh yeshiva's face if you said "rebbe"!!! That's only for his talmidim. Otherwise it's "kvod rosh hayeshiva" in hebrew.
I made the same mistake once a few years ago and I am still cringing. The worst part about it was that I thought it out first and still got it wrong. These were my thoughts at the time:
- The RY does not like being called an RY (this particular one)
- The choshuve wife of a certain very close older talmid of the RY has referred to him as Rebbe when she has conversed with me about him.
- my husband and I are one person. If the RY is his Rebbe, then isn't he my Rebbe too?
- I endeavor to be the RY's talmida in hashkafa. He also teaches the wives directly.
Raisin if you want ritual then people who aren't frum or aren't jewish also cringe when they see frum yidden not sit next to their wives in separate seats on a bus (Gur), or have mehadrin buses in general (not halocho or ritual) or think it is so strange that chassidim wear "funny clothing" (not halocho or ritual either actually).
it's all where one comes from. to me it's totally natural to speak to a rov or a respected person in the third person.
And yes Isramom I can see the expression on the rosh yeshiva's face if you said "rebbe"!!! That's only for his talmidim. Otherwise it's "kvod rosh hayeshiva" in hebrew.
every single one of those things is cultural, except the sitting next to spouse, if it is because of nidda. (I personally would probably sit next to dh if not nidda, although I do know there are some people who always keep harchokos in public for tznius reasons)
Raisin I thought the hindu story of untouchables was part of their religion! Now you tell me it is cultural? I was taught it was the same as niddah for us. Klal Bal Yaavor
It's OK. I've just updated Wiki to say that niddah is regional. I wrote that Jews in the arctic don't keep the laws of niddah when living in igloos. They are much more relaxed with regards to all tznius related issues and tend to rely on the extreme cold and several layers of clothing to protect them from transgressing biblical edicts with regard to elicit relationships.
In India, social and religious are just not possible to separate. Halevai our "assimilated" Jews had the faith and low intermarriage rate of the "assimilated" Indians. But for that we would need strong families and parents who aren't afraid of being not politically correct. That's another story.
It's OK. I've just updated Wiki to say that niddah is regional. I wrote that Jews in the arctic don't keep the laws of niddah when living in igloos. They are much more relaxed with regards to all tznius related issues and tend to rely on the extreme cold and several layers of clothing to protect them from transgressing biblical edicts with regard to elicit relationships.
Even if they want to elicit licit relationships?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
