Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
Now, if I choose, I could get very offended by this post, because I already elucidated the muktza issue. However, I am not the amother who started the thread about feeling like chopped liver when people skip over your posts, and I told her not to spend so much mental energy taking offense over it, so, I will take my own advice! And besides, we don't pay anyone to read every post on the thread. And if we prohibit duplication of ideas, a thread might not reach 150+ pages.
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
Shalhevet, please explain why you can not bring a garbage can into a sukka (I dont think we have ever done that, but this sounds interesting )
Also, what would be muktza about a plate for bones at each person's place?
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
Shalhevet, please explain why you can not bring a garbage can into a sukka (I dont think we have ever done that, but this sounds interesting )
Also, what would be muktza about a plate for bones at each person's place?
I'll answer the second question which I already effectively answered, and then Shalhevet can answer that question and the Sukka one, since you asked it in reponse to her post, and then the thread can be a few posts longer:
The bones are mukzta. If you have a plate with nothing on it and then you put only muktza on it, it becomes a holder for muktza and in doing so, becomes muktza itself. If you want to get around the problem, I believe you can put a non-muktza item, such as a fork, onto the plate first, and then you can put bones on as well, and the plate will not become muktza.
You have the same issue when you are stacking. You can just put the silverware on a plate first, then scrape the food remains onto the plate with the silverware, and then place empty plates under the top plate.
And the same with clearing crumbs off a table. You can't just sweep the crumbs into a dish or a bin. You have to put something non-muktza into a receptacle first, and then sweep the crumbs into it, and use something like a napkin to sweep the crumbs, rather than your bare hand.
I think this is very appropriate for this thread (warning: improper language, view AT YOUR OWN RISK)
Sorry, but can this link please be removed? It's not just inappropriate language (in fact the language is extremely crude) but the whole concept is offensive the way it's presented. Not everything that's "funny" needs to be linked here if it's slightly related....
yes I know you put the warning, but I think the link is beyond what people would expect based on that...
I removed it. Shame though because its sort of a perfect description of this thread.
(and thank you for quoting intelligently and not copying the link in an amother post)
FTR, you could have posted this under your sn and I would have removed it also :-)
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
Now, if I choose, I could get very offended by this post, because I already elucidated the muktza issue. However, I am not the amother who started the thread about feeling like chopped liver when people skip over your posts, and I told her not to spend so much mental energy taking offense over it, so, I will take my own advice! And besides, we don't pay anyone to read every post on the thread. And if we prohibit duplication of ideas, a thread might not reach 150+ pages.
I'm sorry, EvenI. I usually really enjoy (and read) your posts.
The truth is I haven't been on here (except for a brief while last night) for a day and a half, so even my favourite thread just got quickly glanced through. In my defense there were about 6 new pages here.
BTW, I disagree about the crumbs on the table being muktza, because they are edible. The bones issue might also depend on what bones and what pets you have and a few other issues (and are more stringent, funnily enough, on YT than Shabbos) - so everyone should ask their own LOR.
A garbage pail might be muktza too - ask your LOR.
The sukka is holy, so we don't do anything disrespectful there - many people don't bring pots into the sukka, only nice serving dishes - and a garbage pail is certainly disrespectful.
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
Now, if I choose, I could get very offended by this post, because I already elucidated the muktza issue. However, I am not the amother who started the thread about feeling like chopped liver when people skip over your posts, and I told her not to spend so much mental energy taking offense over it, so, I will take my own advice! And besides, we don't pay anyone to read every post on the thread. And if we prohibit duplication of ideas, a thread might not reach 150+ pages.
I'm sorry, EvenI. I usually really enjoy (and read) your posts.
The truth is I haven't been on here (except for a brief while last night) for a day and a half, so even my favourite thread just got quickly glanced through. In my defense there were about 6 new pages here.
BTW, I disagree about the crumbs on the table being muktza, because they are edible. The bones issue might also depend on what bones and what pets you have and a few other issues (and are more stringent, funnily enough, on YT than Shabbos) - so everyone should ask their own LOR.
A garbage pail might be muktza too - ask your LOR.
The sukka is holy, so we don't do anything disrespectful there - many people don't bring pots into the sukka, only nice serving dishes - and a garbage pail is certainly disrespectful.
Shalhevet, it was mean of me to mention it. I shouldn't have embarrassed you. I did mean it in good humor, nonetheless.
The crumbs, I see your point. This was what my husband came up with when he learned it through. Maybe it because people don't usually eat the crumbs left on the table or because they may not be simply harmless challa crumbs but also bits of less appealing food remains. Others can ask their LOR or LOH or whatever is appropriate.
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
Again with the anti-american remarks, sice Israeli's are known to have the purest tongues.
freidasima wrote:
which I have seen frum young people write...don't they know that the F is profanity?
In short, it's all in chinuch and some of the things I mention, which may sound to a few of you like a 19th century throwback from a shtetl in Russia, are part of that chinuch IMHO!
My father always says, "how do you know that you're old? When you start calling anyone that displeases your lifestyle or ideas 'the young ones', or 'shnookes'.
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
Again with the anti-american remarks, sice Israeli's are known to have the purest tongues.
Why is this anti-American? FS said "western life" - do you know what western culture means? It belongs to people with that culture wherever they live.
And why the nasty, uncalled for remarks against Israelis?
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
Again with the anti-american remarks, sice Israeli's are known to have the purest tongues.
Why is this anti-American? FS said "western life" - do you know what western culture means? It belongs to people with that culture wherever they live.
And why the nasty, uncalled for remarks against Israelis?
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
Again with the anti-american remarks, sice Israeli's are known to have the purest tongues.
Why is this anti-American? FS said "western life" - do you know what western culture means? It belongs to people with that culture wherever they live.
And why the nasty, uncalled for remarks against Israelis?
Hearing bashing again and again could make almost anyone answer back...
I think I did hear of no trashcan in the suka.
I certainly understand poubelle de table - but have not seen one (that I remember) in France... I always saw them as Israeli! My dh sees them as Italian! lol
Shabbat language didn't mean curse words at all in this case but rather what we call "chutzpadik expressions" in our home. Very different. Talking to a mother and saying "That's what YOU say!!" is unacceptable in our family and in others that I know from our type as well. In other families which are more "easygoing" about family roles etc. I have heard this said to parents and have heard parents complain about the "undue familiarity" which children are using when speaking to them.
HR again, your experience versus mine. If I am "generalizing" then so are you.
I really shouldn't comment before reading the next 4 pages but how about speaking to parents in the third person? It's pretty beautiful when I've seen it done but it's becoming increasingly less common. I don't think there's any slippery slope about certain leniencies, e.g. fathers helping a little (really, one parent should be at the table most if not all of the time).
Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Aug 10 2011, 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
Again with the anti-american remarks, sice Israeli's are known to have the purest tongues.
Why is this anti-American? FS said "western life" - do you know what western culture means? It belongs to people with that culture wherever they live.
And why the nasty, uncalled for remarks against Israelis?
Perhaps reciprocating?
Kitov, you are better than that
Help me remember that I fast yesterday, and it wasn't fun!
I really shouldn't comment before reading the next 4 pages but how about speaking to parents in the third person? It's pretty beautiful when I've seen it done but it's becoming increasingly less common.
Okay, maybe I haven't had enough caffeine, but when I hear about speaking to parents in the third person, I think of the Seinfeld episode where the character referred to himself in the third person, annoying the gang ("Jimmy doesn't want to go to the movies") If I ever told my father "SHE" said I could have cookies before dinner, referring to my mother, there would have been an immediate attitude adjustment directed my way. So could you please give an example? 8)
I also never heard of a special kitchen-table garbage can, but if Rachael Ray can charge mucho bucks for a "garbage bowl" on her website, maybe it's an idea whose time has come? We never had special bone plates, either. But we did have designated seats at the table - not just the parents, as a reminder that we each held a special place in the family. If I was doing homework in the kitchen, I might sit in "someone else's" place, but would revert to "my seat" for dinner.
I think this is very appropriate for this thread (warning: improper language, view AT YOUR OWN RISK)
Sorry, but can this link please be removed? It's not just inappropriate language (in fact the language is extremely crude) but the whole concept is offensive the way it's presented. Not everything that's "funny" needs to be linked here if it's slightly related....
yes I know you put the warning, but I think the link is beyond what people would expect based on that...
I removed it. Shame though because its sort of a perfect description of this thread.
(and thank you for quoting intelligently and not copying the link in an amother post)
FTR, you could have posted this under your sn and I would have removed it also :-)
Thank you for removing it, and thank you for the compliment to my intelligence.
I"m anonymous because I haven't posted on this thread at all - just read - and it would seem really random if I chime in with this request - kind of annoying, I would think!
I really shouldn't comment before reading the next 4 pages but how about speaking to parents in the third person? It's pretty beautiful when I've seen it done but it's becoming increasingly less common.
Okay, maybe I haven't had enough caffeine, but when I hear about speaking to parents in the third person, I think of the Seinfeld episode where the character referred to himself in the third person, annoying the gang ("Jimmy doesn't want to go to the movies") If I ever told my father "SHE" said I could have cookies before dinner, referring to my mother, there would have been an immediate attitude adjustment directed my way. So could you please give an example? 8)
I also never heard of a special kitchen-table garbage can, but if Rachael Ray can charge mucho bucks for a "garbage bowl" on her website, maybe it's an idea whose time has come? We never had special bone plates, either. But we did have designated seats at the table - not just the parents, as a reminder that we each held a special place in the family. If I was doing homework in the kitchen, I might sit in "someone else's" place, but would revert to "my seat" for dinner.
Example of talking to parents in third person:
[addressing mother] "Does Mommy want more chicken?"
[addressing father] "Is Dad ready to go to shul?"
In my world it would be babyish (or ironical). Even in the very very very few families where children still say "vous" to parents, they don't go that far.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
In my house and my parents and my grandparents that would never happen. It's certainly not considered eidel.
Dishes are taken off the table with whatever is on them, not stacked or anything else.
O.M.Goodness.
I'm having trouble following this thread. For some reason imamother freezes on me erratically so I'm taking the risk of sending before getting to read the next few pages.
But don't tell me this is devolving into a stacking-scraping-etc. debate.
And you do realize that as I may not be able to get back on I am being left with the very clear impression that in shtark MO circles NO ONE STACKS and THIS WILL BE an issue in shidduchim should one of my kids find him/herself in the MO world.
We once had a "hirhur tchuvah" as kids and starting calling our parents in third person. Boy were they annoyed! They told us not to be frumer than them and their parents, and that Hashem, who is the holiest of the holiest, is also referred to as "you". As in "Atah yatzartah".
)
I usually really enjoy (and read) your posts.
