Funny, as much as my lifestyle differs radically from FS's, in this instance many chassidish/Willy type homes follow the same setup, of the father being the Head of House, men and boys beibg seved first, mother gladly forgoing a choice piece of food for her kids, etc. But none of this is forced on anyone,it's kind of inborn and expected. Btw, serving the men first is purely practical; since the girls are doing the serving, why should their food get cold while theyre still going in and out of the kitchen with the mens' portions?
This is what I dont get (and I dont think that FS answered either) why in the world cant boys help? What if a family only has boys?????
Boys help IF there's no one else other than the mother to serve. I find that in most chassidishe homes, respect is shared evenly between fathers AND mothers, with the CHILDREN expected to help serve. So usually the mother would do the plating in the kitchen, then the girls would help with bring them to the table. When the course is complete, the boys would clear that serving when the oilem is done. Then the mother goes back to the kitchen, plates the next serving, girls serve it, boys clear it. When the whole meal/seuda is done, the boys AND girls clear the tables and do the sweeping while mom and dad sit on the couch....And the father manages the cleaning up by giving directives and offering a hand where needed....Oh, and the chassidishe homes I'm affiliated with, the mother licks ice cream while the father settles the kids for bed after the sueda!
Kitov if the boys are still talking torah with the father during the meal or singing zmiros as courses are being changed (soup to main, or main to dessert) at that time then how can they be cleaning off? In our house the boys are singing zmiros as the girls clear off.
Yes as different as many things in our lifestyle are, in other things we were brought up in the same way as I was brought up old world European and so are my children.
About serving, the girls are up helping so they get last. But the boys are also sitting on the far side of the table to the right of the father and so it is natural that they get after him. If we have married couples then it's different and as I wrote, if we have very modern who would be offended by the "men first" then dh gets first and when it comes to the couples I do ladies first so that they don't get shocked.
Shabbat in our house it derekh eretz for a father to get first and for women to serve the men especially if they are sitting and talking torah. All what one is used to, I guess.
Sure in a family with only boys the boys get up to serve. But we don't have that issue.
Finally, I wrote that in my social circle this is how it is done but I do know and have been at houses of less traditional families, very americanized religious or non religious families where the serving is different than at my home or that of my family and close friends.
My brother always sat on the far side of the table near my father, my mother on the other side of my father, and my brother ALWAYS helped. He was the best crumb cleaner off-er. He helped at every course. He still does and he is not even at home anymore. I really do not get the whole boys talking torah so they dont have to help. That just makes men who wont help later in life.
Also about the men sitting and talking torah, as I said, why are the women not included in this? In my home growing up, the divrei torah was for everyone, not just the men. Gosh, I have one brother and two other sisters. If we had no geusts, my father would only be having a discussion with my brother and all of us females would miss out. Talk about a bum rap. And I agree with ruchel on this one. That would put me off religion in a BIIIIIIIG way.
Funny, as much as my lifestyle differs radically from FS's, in this instance many chassidish/Willy type homes follow the same setup, of the father being the Head of House, men and boys beibg seved first, mother gladly forgoing a choice piece of food for her kids, etc. But none of this is forced on anyone,it's kind of inborn and expected. Btw, serving the men first is purely practical; since the girls are doing the serving, why should their food get cold while theyre still going in and out of the kitchen with the mens' portions?
This is what I dont get (and I dont think that FS answered either) why in the world cant boys help? What if a family only has boys?????
Boys help IF there's no one else other than the mother to serve. I find that in most chassidishe homes, respect is shared evenly between fathers AND mothers, with the CHILDREN expected to help serve. So usually the mother would do the plating in the kitchen, then the girls would help with bring them to the table. When the course is complete, the boys would clear that serving when the oilem is done. Then the mother goes back to the kitchen, plates the next serving, girls serve it, boys clear it. When the whole meal/seuda is done, the boys AND girls clear the tables and do the sweeping while mom and dad sit on the couch....And the father manages the cleaning up by giving directives and offering a hand where needed....Oh, and the chassidishe homes I'm affiliated with, the mother licks ice cream while the father settles the kids for bed after the sueda!
This sounds great, really everyone is helping out in some way.
Kitov if the boys are still talking torah with the father during the meal or singing zmiros as courses are being changed (soup to main, or main to dessert) at that time then how can they be cleaning off? In our house the boys are singing zmiros as the girls clear off.
Now this might be weird, but look, dh was raised in a home where my fil had utmost respect and sympathy with his wife, and BH it trickled down! When a serving is done eating, dh commands the boys to clear the empty plates BEFORE zemiros or dvar torahs...So dh, being the practical guy on the block, orders the garbage can in, all waste is discarded and empty plates placed on the serving tray that is parked on the table. Then all I need to do is take them to the kitchen, put them in the dishwasher, and plate the next course.
If a man is considerate with his wife, he'll come up with ways to sing zemiros, say dvar torahs, and have his wife not work her @ss off just because she's female. I like to enjoy a seuda too!
Funny, as much as my lifestyle differs radically from FS's, in this instance many chassidish/Willy type homes follow the same setup, of the father being the Head of House, men and boys beibg seved first, mother gladly forgoing a choice piece of food for her kids, etc. But none of this is forced on anyone,it's kind of inborn and expected. Btw, serving the men first is purely practical; since the girls are doing the serving, why should their food get cold while theyre still going in and out of the kitchen with the mens' portions?
This is what I dont get (and I dont think that FS answered either) why in the world cant boys help? What if a family only has boys?????
Boys help IF there's no one else other than the mother to serve. I find that in most chassidishe homes, respect is shared evenly between fathers AND mothers, with the CHILDREN expected to help serve. So usually the mother would do the plating in the kitchen, then the girls would help with bring them to the table. When the course is complete, the boys would clear that serving when the oilem is done. Then the mother goes back to the kitchen, plates the next serving, girls serve it, boys clear it. When the whole meal/seuda is done, the boys AND girls clear the tables and do the sweeping while mom and dad sit on the couch....And the father manages the cleaning up by giving directives and offering a hand where needed....Oh, and the chassidishe homes I'm affiliated with, the mother licks ice cream while the father settles the kids for bed after the sueda!
This sounds great, really everyone is helping out in some way.
Kitov if the boys are still talking torah with the father during the meal or singing zmiros as courses are being changed (soup to main, or main to dessert) at that time then how can they be cleaning off? In our house the boys are singing zmiros as the girls clear off.
The father can stop talking divrei Torah or singing zemirot for two minutes or long enough for the boys to help.
That is what we do. If it is time to clear off, we stop what we are doing or we finish talking whatever it was that we were talking about. How hard is that really?
Kitov if the boys are still talking torah with the father during the meal or singing zmiros as courses are being changed (soup to main, or main to dessert) at that time then how can they be cleaning off? In our house the boys are singing zmiros as the girls clear off.
Now this might be weird, but look, dh was raised in a home where my fil had utmost respect and sympathy with his wife, and BH it trickled down! When a serving is done eating, dh commands the boys to clear the empty plates BEFORE zemiros or dvar torahs...So dh, being the practical guy on the block, orders the garbage can in, all waste is discarded and empty plates placed on the serving tray that is parked on the table. Then all I need to do is take them to the kitchen, put them in the dishwasher, and plate the next course.
If a man is considerate with his wife, he'll come up with ways to sing zemiros, say dvar torahs, and have his wife not work her @ss off just because she's female. I like to enjoy a seuda too!
this sounds wonderful. I will again mention a wonderful family that I know in south africa with 12 or 13 children (I forgot as I never met all of them ) and the parents do just that. After each course, they bring in plastic boxes to put the plates into and the garbage can. So everyone is doing something. Then at the end of the meal, before bentching (as the mother said, before everyone runs away ) they all bring in the boxes with the plates and stuff, someone sweeps and bring the garbage cans back to the kitchen and its all done.
Old world European varies. It is not monolithic. Many posters have brought up non american, old europe grandparents, raised differently, in the various threads, hence associate it with different ideas.
Maybe davka the different types of old european dont hang out together? Or they go once, dont look modern so they are served as you describe, and dont come back?
I understand minhagim where women cant sing when there are guests. But listen and enjoy??
Making spirituality a man thing creates the situation Sara Schenirer fought against with the BY. Not about feminism, just common sense. Read her diaries.
Truth is, if no one is resentful with their family's serving set up, what's the whole point of this discussion? It seems to work in some homes, but it probably might never work in mine, because I am not used to this lifestyle. Had I been born into it, I probably would've embraced it.
Just as with this whole thread...I've been mentioning things along the thread which many posters had a hard time digesting. (Leaving teens home alone for extended hours daily was one). But such is life. If you are born and raised into a way of life, if it is doen fairly and respectively, anything goes. If people appear happy and content with their life, and seem to take pride in their lifestyle, then I respect it and am happy for them, and expect them to reciprocate positive feelings towards me as well.
I don't even understand this argument. Families do things in a way that works for them. You can have every family on the block doing things in different ways and- surprise! They might just all be happy with their own ways. It is ridiculous to push your personal or family ideals on another person or family. If one woman is happiest having her husband sit at the table without getting up all meal to talk Torah, great. Leave her be. If one woman is happiest having her husband do all the serving while she chats with her kids, great. Leave her be. What's with all the negativity and judgement of lifestyles different from our own? This goes for everyone on this forum who feels the need to question other peoples choices. Let's all be respectful of choices and lifestyles that are different from our own.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
In my house and my parents and my grandparents that would never happen. It's certainly not considered eidel.
Dishes are taken off the table with whatever is on them, not stacked or anything else. In the kitchen behind closed doors they are scraped of debris with organic going into the bin and other things if they exist being tossed elsewhere. Then they are handed to the person washing the dishes at that time and the dish is washed and the silverware is washed and put in the drain rack. That way dishes don't get stacked at all and the bottoms don't get greasy from the smeared food or whatever that is on the plate they would have been put on had they been stacked.
Even in families which do stack their dishes they do it in the sink, never at the table, and certainly I've never seen debris scraped off a plate at the table among my acquaintances except on a kibbutz in the dining room.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
In my house and my parents and my grandparents that would never happen. It's certainly not considered eidel.
Dishes are taken off the table with whatever is on them, not stacked or anything else. In the kitchen behind closed doors they are scraped of debris with organic going into the bin and other things if they exist being tossed elsewhere. Then they are handed to the person washing the dishes at that time and the dish is washed and the silverware is washed and put in the drain rack. That way dishes don't get stacked at all and the bottoms don't get greasy from the smeared food or whatever that is on the plate they would have been put on had they been stacked.
Even in families which do stack their dishes they do it in the sink, never at the table, and certainly I've never seen debris scraped off a plate at the table among my acquaintances except on a kibbutz in the dining room.
Im sorry, but youve got to be kidding me. Youve never seen anyone stack dishes? That is the only way that I have ever seen it, in israel, america, south africa, england. I have never seen one dish be taken off at a time.
And as for bringing the garbage can to the table, what is the big deal? I dont see what the big deal is. Please explain.
I have never seen people scraping off the garbage from the plates any place other than the bin.
My grandparents have those tiny trashcans in plastic that you put on the table. You put bones etc in it. I have never seen it outside of Israel.
For info my grandma is very into beautiful tables and eidel manners, and she likes this anyway.
Ok edit! DH says very common in italy, even in hotels & restaurants!
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
YYYESS!!!!
And we are not a family of farm animals! We are a family that values hardworking parents and don't expect them to be milked like cows because somewhere someone has invented protocols of what's eidel and what's not. We do whatever it takes so the entire family enjoys a meal, looks forward to a meal, contributes both physically and spiritually to a meal, and nobody feels like they overworked.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
YYYESS!!!!
And we are not a family of farm animals! We are a family that values hardworking parents and don't expect them to be milked like cows because somewhere someone has invented protocols of what's eidel and what's not. We do whatever it takes so the entire family enjoys a meal, looks forward to a meal, contributes both physically and spiritually to a meal, and nobody feels like they overworked.
It seems to be working okay!
Well normally we don't bring the garbage can to the table, but we have sometimes brought a garbage back, just not usually.
We stack. Or people bring in their own dish, scrape it, and put it in the sink. That's family. Guest either I or dh or one of the kids would take. DS often takes his wife's plate in, and maybe DH and mine or others...he's really wonderful.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
YYYESS!!!!
And we are not a family of farm animals! We are a family that values hardworking parents and don't expect them to be milked like cows because somewhere someone has invented protocols of what's eidel and what's not. We do whatever it takes so the entire family enjoys a meal, looks forward to a meal, contributes both physically and spiritually to a meal, and nobody feels like they overworked.
It seems to be working okay!
Well normally we don't bring the garbage can to the table, but we have sometimes brought a garbage back, just not usually.
We stack. Or people bring in their own dish, scrape it, and put it in the sink. That's family. Guest either I or dh or one of the kids would take. DS often takes his wife's plate in, and maybe DH and mine or others...he's really wonderful.
I set the table and serve, and my very Yekkish dh helps clear off. He also helps if there's something he wants that I didn't put out, like extra wine glasses or wtvr.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
In my house and my parents and my grandparents that would never happen. It's certainly not considered eidel.
Dishes are taken off the table with whatever is on them, not stacked or anything else. In the kitchen behind closed doors they are scraped of debris with organic going into the bin and other things if they exist being tossed elsewhere. Then they are handed to the person washing the dishes at that time and the dish is washed and the silverware is washed and put in the drain rack. That way dishes don't get stacked at all and the bottoms don't get greasy from the smeared food or whatever that is on the plate they would have been put on had they been stacked.
Even in families which do stack their dishes they do it in the sink, never at the table, and certainly I've never seen debris scraped off a plate at the table among my acquaintances except on a kibbutz in the dining room.
WOW! A genuine elitist. The rest of us are mere peasants, I guess.
Some of you have families that bring the garbage can into the dining area? Right there at the table you put things into the garbage??? You stack dishes??
In my house and my parents and my grandparents that would never happen. It's certainly not considered eidel.
Dishes are taken off the table with whatever is on them, not stacked or anything else. In the kitchen behind closed doors they are scraped of debris with organic going into the bin and other things if they exist being tossed elsewhere. Then they are handed to the person washing the dishes at that time and the dish is washed and the silverware is washed and put in the drain rack. That way dishes don't get stacked at all and the bottoms don't get greasy from the smeared food or whatever that is on the plate they would have been put on had they been stacked.
Even in families which do stack their dishes they do it in the sink, never at the table, and certainly I've never seen debris scraped off a plate at the table among my acquaintances except on a kibbutz in the dining room.
Umm, yes, we stack dishes, as Shabbat said, that's the only way I've ever seen it done. Whoever washes the dishes (ok, these days it's the dishwasher) washes the bottom of the plates too!
I never bring the garbage can to the dining room, even though I have a nice shiny white garbage can that stays out in the kitchen all the time. But I don't like bringing it half full to the table. I just bring an empty garbage bag (yes, bubby, I am a peasant!) and whisk all the garbage in there.
Although honestly now that I think of it, when we have guests that are NOT family I tend to just stack dishes and throw them in the trash in the (adjacent) kitchen.
When everyone helps clear, it takes a couple of minutes. Five minutes max. And then the zmirot can begin again. I usually spend a few more minutes tidying the kitchen, but because the bulk of the work has been done, it doesn't take long.
everyone is helping out in some way.
) they all bring in the boxes with the plates and stuff, someone sweeps and bring the garbage cans back to the kitchen and its all done.
