Well if might just be that some of you aren't familiar with old fashioned European circles or norms of behavior!
But hey, let's have some exaggerations here....
I never said that my way was the only way things are done today, and I never said it was the most common either...certainly not since feminism has taken hold. But you know? There are some of us, even MOs where being MO and being feminist are two different things. Just like Ruchel is always saying that you can be MO and not be zionist.
It's amazing how frightened some of you seem of a way of life that is different than yours and even has values that aer not only different but disparaging of what some of what you consider normal. But then again, you are open to ALL ways of life, consider them ALL equal and never disparage manners which contradict what you live by or consider standard...do you...!
Well if might just be that some of you aren't familiar with old fashioned European circles or norms of behavior!
But hey, let's have some exaggerations here....
I never said that my way was the only way things are done today, and I never said it was the most common either...certainly not since feminism has taken hold. But you know? There are some of us, even MOs where being MO and being feminist are two different things. Just like Ruchel is always saying that you can be MO and not be zionist.
It's amazing how frightened some of you seem of a way of life that is different than yours and even has values that aer not only different but disparaging of what some of what you consider normal. But then again, you are open to ALL ways of life, consider them ALL equal and never disparage manners which contradict what you live by or consider standard...do you...!
That's not me, LOL. Although I try to keep an open mind and not be TOO judgemental, I have no problem disparaging manners that contradict my values.
Still, I'm not the one who called everyone who doesn't serve like me a barn animal. So I honestly don't think I"m the one who is displaying narrow-mindedness/judgement/condescension.
Well if might just be that some of you aren't familiar with old fashioned European circles or norms of behavior!
Ok, do I post AGAIN about what I gleaned from various old fashioned European circles? I know you don't like it, I am sorry, but many did differently. And don't tell me all these families everywhere just happened to be atypical, because LOL.
I believe in "equal but different" and in fairness. I'm not considered a feminist by the "classic meaning" feminists. You can consider me what you want. I just put halacha first, which involves not copying others' duties but doing what mine are.
Yes, I have toleration for all minhagim who tolerate mine without insults and bad hints.
Table traditional Israeli is certainly not traditional old fashioned European Jewish and certainly not traditional old fashioned european very frum which is what many of my standards in these things are, as are those of many of my friends as well, all over the world.
What I describe is not alien to many people although some of you may not have come across it. It is very common that women take after men, that if there isn't enough for guests that the girls and mother take last or don't take at all making some kind of excuse. Just not in your circles. I doesn't lead to any kind of eating disorders, it's just normal gendered behavior.
But then again, those same people who aren't used to it, certainly those in my age group, don't seem to be used to gendered behavior either. Don't seem to be used to "women's domain" and "men's domain". Aren't used to gendered behavior and very clear traditional divisions in the home either. And there are still many families who are like that.
Any of you been to any kavkazi Jewish (Caucus Mountains) homes in EY lately? Then you will see what I describe is not only european but old fashioned traditional in general. What I describe here is nothing compared to that. There the man is total king. Boys come home from the army and their madrichot come to visit the homes and are shocked to see how these 18 year old boys who were just being yelled at by a madricha because their boots weren't shined enough, walk in to their doors and their sisters get up and help them take off those boots and serve them to their seats as if they are kings. They don't lift a finger at home. A kavkazi change a diaper? They don't pick up a dish, wash a glass, sweep a floor in their lives. And that has nothing to do with kovod hatorah, it's just a clear division between men's roles in the home and women's roles in the home. Doesn't say anything about outside. Kavkazi women can go to medical school and become top surgeons and we have them here in EY. But when they enter their home traditional roles reign.
And not only among Kavkazim but many other groups.
Any of you ever a see a choshuver rabbonish family where the father is sitting at the head of the table and platters are brought out and the father isn't offered first? Where everyone just "digs in" without offering the father first?
Anyone ever see a choshuver rabbonish family which has both boys and girls where the girls are just sitting at the table while the boys serve?
Anyone ever see a choshuver rabbonish family where if there is a sudden unexpected problem with food that can't be fixed with shabbosdik food that the mother will put what is considered what that family considers totally vochidig prost food (think: peanut butter and jam) on the shabbos table next to the meat and roasted potatoes?
And before you all go and condemn my household habits, maybe think that I am describing situations that happened in the days or years ago that we were tremendously tight for money and food at a meal including a shabbos meal was budgeted precisely to the person? If you have never had to live like that say Boruch Hashem about yourselves instead of criticizing others who may have had to live like that for a while, but on the other hand would never turn away a sudden shabbos guest who appeared and didn't have where to go.
If one is brought up in a situation where it is normal for girls to be the first to give up their food for a sudden shabbos guest, it is just normal. To people not used to shmiras shabbos all of a sudden hearing of this family which doesn't turn on or off lights for 25 hours also seems a bit freaky. But think of the sachar that those girls get doing the mitva of hachnosas orchim the hard way. It's so easy to keep mitzvos when there is no strain, no sacrifice and it doesn't cost you anything!
And besides, no one starved, they just ate in the kitchen afterwards, non shabbos food that would be a boosha if it were brought to the table (like peanut butter and jam) during the shabbos meal as it would embarras the poor guest who would realize that he was eating up someone elses food.
Why do you have to condemn instead of seeing it as eidelkeit? But I guess in parts of the MO world it's not eidelkeit but just off your radar.
Which can explain why I refer to myself as Shtark MO and not just MO.
Table in my world anyone taking from a platter without offering it first to the head of the table or without being given express permission by the head of the family to serve themselves, is, in terms of manners, beyond the pale. Children taking before adults are offered or before asking permission is beyond the pale as well. Just a matter of plain manners.
The expression "barnyard manners" was that of my husband. He was brought up even more strict than I was and that is how we brought up our children and how our grandson is being brought up. That is how his brothers bring up their children as well. That is how his cousins and their children are brought up as well.
Ruchel, you have your circles and I have mine. For each example you bring, I can bring another that contradicts it. So let's agree to differ here.
As for feminism, in many circles the minute you say that you believe that a husband should equally diaper his child as a wife should, that's already feminism.
traditional old fashioned european very frum which is what many of my standards in these things are, as are those of many of my friends as well, all over the world.
Or not. Again. Even pre war. This is tiring.
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Any of you ever a see a choshuver rabbonish family where the father is sitting at the head of the table and platters are brought out and the father isn't offered first? Where everyone just "digs in" without offering the father first?
I have seen kids served by age, or with no order. I have seen boys and girls helping, or even, gasp, the charedi rabbi dad. I do agree parents should be served or proposed first UNLESS they renounce it.
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If one is brought up in a situation where it is normal for girls to be the first to give up their food for a sudden shabbos guest, it is just normal.
HR's grandmother going OTD? no?
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But think of the sachar that those girls get doing the mitva of hachnosas orchim the hard way. It's so easy to keep mitzvos when there is no strain, no sacrifice and it doesn't cost you anything!
We are not Xtians. These girls certainly get zechus, but the parents not treating them fairly don't get anything. Mitsvos on someone's cheshbon...
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And besides, no one starved, they just ate in the kitchen afterwards, non shabbos food that would be a boosha if it were brought to the table (like peanut butter and jam) during the shabbos meal as it would embarras the poor guest who would realize that he was eating up someone elses food.
Well, maybe he should think of being mentshlish? who eats like a chazir without thinking of others??
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But I guess in parts of the MO world it's not eidelkeit but just off your radar.
Mmmm. What about non MO posters not relating? You really refuse to see the reality here. They stopped answering you, they didn't stop existing.
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Ruchel, you have your circles and I have mine. For each example you bring, I can bring another that contradicts it. So let's agree to differ here.
If you agree that there are circles where even charedim don't do things as you say, I will agree.
Last edited by Ruchel on Mon, Aug 08 2011, 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well if might just be that some of you aren't familiar with old fashioned European circles or norms of behavior!
But hey, let's have some exaggerations here....
I never said that my way was the only way things are done today, and I never said it was the most common either...certainly not since feminism has taken hold. But you know? There are some of us, even MOs where being MO and being feminist are two different things. Just like Ruchel is always saying that you can be MO and not be zionist.
It's amazing how frightened some of you seem of a way of life that is different than yours and even has values that aer not only different but disparaging of what some of what you consider normal. But then again, you are open to ALL ways of life, consider them ALL equal and never disparage manners which contradict what you live by or consider standard...do you...!
While you didn't say that your way was the only way that things are done, you have, at times, said that they are the only way that they may be done halachically, and that you consider that doing things other ways (for example, not giving the food to your husband first) demonstrates manners akin to barn animals.
I'm not frightened by your way of life; I'm saddened by it. I find it sad that you would refuse to eat a healthful, filling meal out of fear that someone might gossip about the fact that you ate a piece of chicken when you are, as you are very fond of saying, slender, choosing instead to secretly eat the leftovers when no one is looking. I find it extremely sad that rather than open a can of tuna, slice the potatoes, or cut up the chicken, you'd rather tell your daughter that she's not allowed to eat lunch, but she can make herself a peanut butter sandwich later.
What I do find frightening is the suggestion that any of this is halachically mandated. Its not.
Well if might just be that some of you aren't familiar with old fashioned European circles or norms of behavior!
But hey, let's have some exaggerations here....
I never said that my way was the only way things are done today, and I never said it was the most common either...certainly not since feminism has taken hold. But you know? There are some of us, even MOs where being MO and being feminist are two different things. Just like Ruchel is always saying that you can be MO and not be zionist.
It's amazing how frightened some of you seem of a way of life that is different than yours and even has values that aer not only different but disparaging of what some of what you consider normal. But then again, you are open to ALL ways of life, consider them ALL equal and never disparage manners which contradict what you live by or consider standard...do you...!
While you didn't say that your way was the only way that things are done, you have, at times, said that they are the only way that they may be done halachically, and that you consider that doing things other ways (for example, not giving the food to your husband first) demonstrates manners akin to barn animals.
I agree.
I will agree to disagree when she acknowledges even charedi rabbanim don't act that way outside of her circles.
Ruchel I don't see how any of your answers have much to do with my questions. My remarks now are in Bold
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traditional old fashioned european very frum which is what many of my standards in these things are, as are those of many of my friends as well, all over the world.
Or not. Again. Even pre war. This is tiring.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH IT AND YOUR FAMILY DID NOT DO IT, IT DID NOT EXIST? I DIDNT SAY THAT ALL FAMILIES DID IT PREWAR BUT IT WAS DEFINITELY A TRADITIONAL WAY. COULD BE THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE TRADITIONAL WAY. aRE YOU SAYING FROM YOUR VAST KNOWLEDGE THAT IT DIDNT EXIST AND THAT MY FAMILY WAS THE ONLY ONE IN A PRE WWI EUROPEAN JEWISH WORLD OF OVER TWELVE MILLION JEWS WHO DID IT?
TO QUOTE YOU, IT IS TIRING TO READ WHAT YOU ARE WRITING OVER AND OVER ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THAT I NEVER SAID IT WAS ACROSS THE BOARD BUT TRADITIONAL.
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Any of you ever a see a choshuver rabbonish family where the father is sitting at the head of the table and platters are brought out and the father isn't offered first? Where everyone just "digs in" without offering the father first?
I have seen kids served by age, or with no order. I have seen boys and girls helping, or even, gasp, the charedi rabbi dad. I do agree parents should be served or proposed first UNLESS they renounce it.
YOU DIDNT ANSWER THE QUESTION AT ALL. I ASKED WHETHER YOU SAW SUCH A FAMILY THAT CHILDREN AS A NORM WERE SERVED BEFORE THEIR FATHER IN SUCH A FAMILY. I ALSO ASKED ABOUT ONLY BOYS HELPING WHILE GIRLS SAT. YOUR ANSWER HAS NOTHING TO DO THEREFORE WITH MY QUESTION
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If one is brought up in a situation where it is normal for girls to be the first to give up their food for a sudden shabbos guest, it is just normal.
HR's grandmother going OTD? no?
AND WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE WHO ACTED LIKE THAT AS A NORM AND DIDNT GO OTD? ONE EXAMPLE OF OTD FOR YOU MAKES IT THE RULE?
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But think of the sachar that those girls get doing the mitva of hachnosas orchim the hard way. It's so easy to keep mitzvos when there is no strain, no sacrifice and it doesn't cost you anything!
We are not Xtians. These girls certainly get zechus, but the parents not treating them fairly don't get anything. Mitsvos on someone's cheshbon...
ARE YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE JEWISH BELIEF OF GETTING MORE SACHAR WHEN THE MITZVA IS HARDER TO DO?
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And besides, no one starved, they just ate in the kitchen afterwards, non shabbos food that would be a boosha if it were brought to the table (like peanut butter and jam) during the shabbos meal as it would embarras the poor guest who would realize that he was eating up someone elses food.
Well, maybe he should think of being mentshlish? who eats like a chazir without thinking of others??
DID ANYONE TALK ABOUT "EATS LIKE A CHAZIR?" WHY ARE YOU EXAGGERATING?
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Ruchel, you have your circles and I have mine. For each example you bring, I can bring another that contradicts it. So let's agree to differ here.
If you agree that there are circles where even charedim don't do things as you say, I will agree.
I THINK IT IS RARE TO FIND CHAREDI FAMILIES WHERE THE FATHER IS NOT SERVED FIRST. IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLL ON THE OTHER THREAD ABOUT HOW ONE SERVES IN THE FAMILY YOU CAN SEE THAT THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF POSTERS STATED IN THE STATISTIC THAT THE FATHER GETS SERVED FIRST AND NOT ONLY IN CHAREDI HOMES.
That's not me, LOL. Although I try to keep an open mind and not be TOO judgemental, I have no problem disparaging manners that contradict my values.
Still, I'm not the one who called everyone who doesn't serve like me a barn animal. So I honestly don't think I"m the one who is displaying narrow-mindedness/judgement/condescension.
Saying you would never allow your family to eat a meal in my home seems very narrow-minded/judgmental/condescending to me. And I did not in any way instigate that kind of unnecessary comment.
I THINK IT IS RARE TO FIND CHAREDI FAMILIES WHERE THE FATHER IS NOT SERVED FIRST. IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLL ON THE OTHER THREAD ABOUT HOW ONE SERVES IN THE FAMILY YOU CAN SEE THAT THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF POSTERS STATED IN THE STATISTIC THAT THE FATHER GETS SERVED FIRST AND NOT ONLY IN CHAREDI HOMES.
Now down to 47% for the first option. Which means fathers being served first is in the (slight) MINORITY on this board of very frum women, since 53% serve everyone together or father last.
So 53% of these frum women dont' know halacha? Or 53% of the women here are ignorant (non 'shtark') MO?
Last edited by Tablepoetry on Mon, Aug 08 2011, 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
That's not me, LOL. Although I try to keep an open mind and not be TOO judgemental, I have no problem disparaging manners that contradict my values.
Still, I'm not the one who called everyone who doesn't serve like me a barn animal. So I honestly don't think I"m the one who is displaying narrow-mindedness/judgement/condescension.
Saying you would never allow your family to eat a meal in my home seems very narrow-minded/judgmental/condescending to me. And I did not in any way instigate that kind of unnecessary comment.
First, when I initially raised the point I did not mention your home specifically or that of any other individual. I said that in general, I woudn't want my younger children exposed to this type of thing and wouldn't want to be a guest at such a home (in general). You insisted on bringing it down to a more personal level, as in your personal home.
Second, I do not need to apologize for not wanting to expose my kids to every single thing. I am pretty acceptant of others' lifestyles, but that doesn't mean I want my kids to be exposed to everything at every age. I am sure many other posters here would agree with me; there must be posters who wouldn't want to be a guest at certain families who uphold values they oppose (maybe the parents aren't married; maybe the brother is openly gay; maybe the kids use swear words; maybe they are tyrannical fanatics who raise an eyebrow if a girl talks too loudly. Whatever). I said clearly that I wouldn't mind taking my older kids to 'different' families, but yes, it would bother me to take young children to families where the value system is so contrary to mine.
Well Barbara at least you are willing to acknowledge that I never said that what I describe is the only way things are done.
I am well aware of other ways. But I find it very interesting that most charedi posters have opted out of discussing this and if you go back and read you will find that overwhelmingly they stated that the father gets served first. That is what I stated as halocho, not the business about girls eating in the kitchen later if there isn't enough food, which seems to really bother some of you. I never stated that was halocho.
But the derekh eretz of a father getting served first or at least offered the food first is very much halocho. I am yet to find a charedi poster here - maybe they will come back after the fast - who states that it is normal (we aren't talking about a small crying child given food to quiet them as a one time thing) on a regular basis for the father not to be served first.
Also note the charedi posters who are also familiar with what I wrote about men and boys especially those in learning being served before women and girls, that wasn't alien to most of them either.
Which might lead you to draw conclusions here that maybe the MO are buying more into western values in the definition of kibbud av than many of the charedim.
As I wrote previously, shtark mo.
So what I suggest if that all of you who think that I am describing things from beyond the pale go and ask your local MODERN orthodox rabbi if kibbud av and derekh eretz include serving a father first or at least offering to serve him first even if he demurrs and says that other people take first. Let's see what your rabbonim say about this....unless now you are going to claim that MO don't have rabbonim at all that teach them the MO interpretation of mitzvos, which we all know is untrue as so many MO have said here that "according to MO rabbonim".
That's not me, LOL. Although I try to keep an open mind and not be TOO judgemental, I have no problem disparaging manners that contradict my values.
Still, I'm not the one who called everyone who doesn't serve like me a barn animal. So I honestly don't think I"m the one who is displaying narrow-mindedness/judgement/condescension.
Saying you would never allow your family to eat a meal in my home seems very narrow-minded/judgmental/condescending to me. And I did not in any way instigate that kind of unnecessary comment.
First, when I initially raised the point I did not mention your home specifically or that of any other individual. I said that in general, I woudn't want my younger children exposed to this type of thing and wouldn't want to be a guest at such a home (in general). You insisted on bringing it down to a more personal level, as in your personal home.
Second, I do not need to apologize for not wanting to expose my kids to every single thing. I am pretty acceptant of others' lifestyles, but that doesn't mean I want my kids to be exposed to everything at every age. I am sure many other posters here would agree with me; there must be posters who wouldn't want to be a guest at certain families who uphold values they oppose (maybe the parents aren't married; maybe the brother is openly gay; maybe the kids use swear words; maybe they are tyrannical fanatics who raise an eyebrow if a girl talks too loudly. Whatever). I said clearly that I wouldn't mind taking my older kids to 'different' families, but yes, it would bother me to take young children to families where the value system is so contrary to mine.
After I explained what my family does, you said you would never take your family to a meal in a home that engages in those practices. You are perfectly entitled to your parenting choices, and you don't need to apologize for them. But it is rude and mean to say it that way, and for that I would expect an apology. I did not write anything condescending regarding any of the practices you talked about, whether or not I felt they were wrong. I think we all expect this courtesy.
I wouldn't take my family to such a home. Period. I apologize if that offends you. I never said 'I would never take my family to MaBelleVie''s home' (if she were kind enough to invite us in the first place). Again, you decided to make it personal for some strange reason.
Ruchel I never wrote that no one went OTD. You may have surmised that on your own but we all know that many yidden went OTD over the years for many reasons.
No one "looks for hardship" and again that has nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote that when something is more difficult one gets more sachar according to Jewish belief.
Again you are throwing around this word "chazir" that only you mentioned.
No one said that "he eats so much that there is nothing left" but rather that if a meal is plated and he is given a plate with meat or if he is served by the hostess with both meat and sides while let's say the girls are just given sides as there is enough of that to go around, do you really think that it is a guest's job to check every other person's plate at the table to see whether he has gotten more than they have?
Well Barbara at least you are willing to acknowledge that I never said that what I describe is the only way things are done.
I am well aware of other ways. But I find it very interesting that most charedi posters have opted out of discussing this and if you go back and read you will find that overwhelmingly they stated that the father gets served first. That is what I stated as halocho, not the business about girls eating in the kitchen later if there isn't enough food, which seems to really bother some of you. I never stated that was halocho.
But the derekh eretz of a father getting served first or at least offered the food first is very much halocho. I am yet to find a charedi poster here - maybe they will come back after the fast - who states that it is normal (we aren't talking about a small crying child given food to quiet them as a one time thing) on a regular basis for the father not to be served first.
Also note the charedi posters who are also familiar with what I wrote about men and boys especially those in learning being served before women and girls, that wasn't alien to most of them either.
Which might lead you to draw conclusions here that maybe the MO are buying more into western values in the definition of kibbud av than many of the charedim.
As I wrote previously, shtark mo.
So what I suggest if that all of you who think that I am describing things from beyond the pale go and ask your local MODERN orthodox rabbi if kibbud av and derekh eretz include serving a father first or at least offering to serve him first even if he demurrs and says that other people take first. Let's see what your rabbonim say about this....unless now you are going to claim that MO don't have rabbonim at all that teach them the MO interpretation of mitzvos, which we all know is untrue as so many MO have said here that "according to MO rabbonim".
You forget that I eat regularly at the home of our local MO rabbi. And he eats at our home on a not infrequent basis as well. I can categorically state that he doesn't always get served first.
I've never had the honor of being invited to the home of a Charedi rabbi, so I really cannot comment on the way meals are served.
But has anyone -- ANYONE -- other than you suggested that serving the man first is halachically mandated? You keep saying it, as if saying it loud enough and long enough, in posts of increasing length, will make it so.
BTW, whether or not the father IS served first is a wholly different issue from whether it is halachically mandated. *If* I were to pass platters, rather than place them on the table, then my husband would be served first, due to the logistics of the dining room. That doesn't mean its halachic. Just like the old joke about cutting off the end of the brisket. (*My roasting pan was too small.*)
I would not serve meat if there wasn't enough for everyone to have and that includes both sons and daughters and guests. It isn't the guests' job to look and see if the host has more but it is the host's job to make sure that when he takes meat he leaves enough over so that his family and guests have enough to eat and aren't left with just side dishes.
Ruchel I never wrote that no one went OTD. You may have surmised that on your own but we all know that many yidden went OTD over the years for many reasons.
No one "looks for hardship" and again that has nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote that when something is more difficult one gets more sachar according to Jewish belief.
Again you are throwing around this word "chazir" that only you mentioned.
No one said that "he eats so much that there is nothing left" but rather that if a meal is plated and he is given a plate with meat or if he is served by the hostess with both meat and sides while let's say the girls are just given sides as there is enough of that to go around, do you really think that it is a guest's job to check every other person's plate at the table to see whether he has gotten more than they have?
If the hostess does it, and he doesn't notice it, not his fault. But very much the parents' fault. If there was a special case and food was missing my husband would not take. Then me. Not my children.
I really don't think it's a thing all charedim do, unless we are discussing Israeli charedi only and then my experience is much more limited especially if you don't count olim. But if you count others, I have seen with my own eyes happening differently in charedi homes including charedi rabbi home. Serving by gender or depriving girls, yes I would have noticed.
Last edited by Ruchel on Mon, Aug 08 2011, 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
