Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Interesting. In my home growing up, my father always took last, in everything. He made sure that everyone else got first. That was the way that we could do kibud av. He wanted us to take first. I dont think I ever remember him getting first. And to me that is showing me that he is more important than me because I am listening to what he wants done, not him going first.
My husband does as well. And he is well respected by my kids.
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Interesting. In my home growing up, my father always took last, in everything. He made sure that everyone else got first. That was the way that we could do kibud av. He wanted us to take first. I dont think I ever remember him getting first. And to me that is showing me that he is more important than me because I am listening to what he wants done, not him going first.
My husband does as well. And he is well respected by my kids.
Of course It is almost because he took last that I have this wonderful respect for my father. He wanted to make sure that everyone at the table got something before he took.
Saw, what scares me even more, is this entire thread. Somehow people refuse to look out of their cubicles and firmly believe that their way is the true torah way.Whether it is camp, being a SAHM, leaving teens unattended, having male dominance in the gouse, whichever topic you cover. To those posters, life doesn't change in a hundred years, and regardless in which country we live.
Ironically, I, a sheltered chassidishe veibele, have an easier time accepting Jewish variety in observance and across the world, than many "open minded, secular exposed" posters do.
Why?
Because you are satisfied with how your life is going and so don't need to impose your derech on anyone else?
Saw, what scares me even more, is this entire thread. Somehow people refuse to look out of their cubicles and firmly believe that their way is the true torah way.Whether it is camp, being a SAHM, leaving teens unattended, having male dominance in the gouse, whichever topic you cover. To those posters, life doesn't change in a hundred years, and regardless in which country we live.
Ironically, I, a sheltered chassidishe veibele, have an easier time accepting Jewish variety in observance and across the world, than many "open minded, secular exposed" posters do.
Why?
Because you are satisfied with how your life is going and so don't need to impose your derech on anyone else?
I have to ask, who here IS imposing her derech on others?
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
that's not how I read it...I think she meant that the more secular a person is, the mentality is "ladies first" as opposed to a more right wing approach is "serve the men first"
I can see how you are reading it negatively, though.
Personally, I don't make a blanket "men first", either. If there is a mix of old and young, I would sooner do old vs young than men vs women... (ie my grandmother before my uncle...)
This serving thing has been racking my brain all night (I was dreaming about it) I have been thinking about all of the homes that I have eve been in for shabbat and my parent's home and I never saw serving, at all. The dishes were always brought to the table and the person closest to the kitchen was given the dish to place on the table or take first. Simple as that. Does nobody else do it that way? Right now at home, there is me, hubby and child. We both bring in the dishes and so whomever sits down first will take from the dish that is closest to their seat and then pass it, but it was done the same way while I was growing up. Nobody else?
Well, like I said, aside from the soup or if we are lucky fish/melon...appetizer, I bring to the table (my husband clears, I cook/bring in the food) and pass it from my end (one head of the table) along both sides. Sometimes I might start something on my husbands side (the other head of the table). If I've a lot of people I'll spread the food out, so everyone can take something and no one is waiting, waiting, waiting.
Saw, what scares me even more, is this entire thread. Somehow people refuse to look out of their cubicles and firmly believe that their way is the true torah way.Whether it is camp, being a SAHM, leaving teens unattended, having male dominance in the gouse, whichever topic you cover. To those posters, life doesn't change in a hundred years, and regardless in which country we live.
Ironically, I, a sheltered chassidishe veibele, have an easier time accepting Jewish variety in observance and across the world, than many "open minded, secular exposed" posters do.
Why?
Because you are satisfied with how your life is going and so don't need to impose your derech on anyone else?
I have to ask, who here IS imposing her derech on others?
There is a lot of lack of acceptance and calling into question the frumkeit of those who do it differently.
Saw, there is absolutely no halochic problem with a woman giving a man a ring or any other present under the chuppah. It is NOT a kinyan and it has to be said out loud that it is a present and NOT a kinyan and it can't be done at any time during the halochic part of a service. The rabbonim who say you can't are saying that men wearing wedding rings are following a non jewish custom and they shouldn't, which is how I was brought up BTW unlike my husband who is third generation american and in his family they did wear... Ask your rov directly about it if you want. Ask him whether a bride is permitted to give her groom a present, including a ring, after the kesuba is read and after the sheva brochos but before stepping on the glass, if it is announced that "the kallah has bought a present for her chossen as a token of her love and wants to present it to him, this is a present and not a kinyan or anything else", whether THAT is halochically posul and what their asmachta (reasoning and source) is.
FS, I'm a little stupefied by your post. Knowing nothing about the Rav who gave the psak you make that claim?
Yes, our Rabbi holds that a woman giving the man a ring or any other gift during the wedding ceremony, up to and including the yichud room is a problem. I am MO, and the Rabbi is a MO Rabbi. Most of the men I know wear wedding bands. We are not talking about a charedi crowd.
And I am not the only friend of mine who was told that. Many of my friends (who asked) were told the same thing. Giving the man a ring under the chupah or in the yichud room presents problems. We were also told it was better to wait until after sheva brachot so it wouldn't be part of the actual wedding at all.
I'm sorry if you or your rabbonim disagree with it, but that doesn't make my Rabbi wrong, nor against my husband wearing a wedding band. I am talking about a psak we recieved directly from our Rabbi in response to our wedding. I am not talking in theory or what we've heard etc, etc, etc.
My memory may be off, but we were told to give the ring in the yichud room, but definitely not under the chuppah.
Saw, what scares me even more, is this entire thread. Somehow people refuse to look out of their cubicles and firmly believe that their way is the true torah way.Whether it is camp, being a SAHM, leaving teens unattended, having male dominance in the gouse, whichever topic you cover. To those posters, life doesn't change in a hundred years, and regardless in which country we live.
Ironically, I, a sheltered chassidishe veibele, have an easier time accepting Jewish variety in observance and across the world, than many "open minded, secular exposed" posters do.
Why?
Because you are satisfied with how your life is going and so don't need to impose your derech on anyone else?
I have to ask, who here IS imposing her derech on others?
There is a lot of lack of acceptance and calling into question the frumkeit of those who do it differently.
I hope this is not perceived to be on my part. I have repeated ad nauseum that I don't expect others to do things the way I do, and that there are many acceptable ways of doing things in Judaism.
I will point out that I have been on the receiving end of some hostility and rudeness on this thread, despite all my own efforts to remain respectful and courteous.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
that's not how I read it...I think she meant that the more secular a person is, the mentality is "ladies first" as opposed to a more right wing approach is "serve the men first"
I can see how you are reading it negatively, though.
Personally, I don't make a blanket "men first", either. If there is a mix of old and young, I would sooner do old vs young than men vs women... (ie my grandmother before my uncle...)
This serving thing has been racking my brain all night (I was dreaming about it) I have been thinking about all of the homes that I have eve been in for shabbat and my parent's home and I never saw serving, at all. The dishes were always brought to the table and the person closest to the kitchen was given the dish to place on the table or take first. Simple as that. Does nobody else do it that way? Right now at home, there is me, hubby and child. We both bring in the dishes and so whomever sits down first will take from the dish that is closest to their seat and then pass it, but it was done the same way while I was growing up. Nobody else?
Well, like I said, aside from the soup or if we are lucky fish/melon...appetizer, I bring to the table (my husband clears, I cook/bring in the food) and pass it from my end (one head of the table) along both sides. Sometimes I might start something on my husbands side (the other head of the table). If I've a lot of people I'll spread the food out, so everyone can take something and no one is waiting, waiting, waiting.
Seems normal to me.
I am going to start a thread about serving at the table, I just dont know if it should be under manners and etiquette or issues of concern in frum society
I am going to start a thread about serving at the table, I just dont know if it should be under manners and etiquette or issues of concern in frum society
Controversial dear. Also, I've come to the conclusion that the entire fate of the world rests upon how we serve dinner.
I am going to start a thread about serving at the table, I just dont know if it should be under manners and etiquette or issues of concern in frum society
Controversial dear. Also, I've come to the conclusion that the entire fate of the world rests upon how we serve dinner.
Wow, that's what happens when I work. So much stuff going on, so much to answer.
First, don't give a peirush rashi to me, do pshat as I really mean pshat.
I - Freidasima - was taught at home by my mother and grandmother (and this is how I taught my children and how we - the Freidasima family - act in our own home) that there is a difference between how you serve at the table if you are hosting people, depending on who the people are.
If you are serving, non Jews, non religious Jews and those very modern Orthodox Jews who don't know from what I will describe in a second and would be offended by it, you serve "Ladies first".
However that doesn't apply to family. Meaning if you have 20 people at the table, 10 from the freidasima family (father, mother, 5 kids, in law kids and grandson who already sits at the table) and 10 guests, you serve the guests by their standards but your standards for serving YOUR (meaning my) family remain as they always are. [first dh, who always tells me "freidasima take what you like first" to which I answer "Yehuda you first" and as he knows exactly what I like he puts it on my plate while he winks to the kids, then to my son in law, then to my older son, then to my three daughters by age and finally to my youngest son who is much younger in age than the sisters. My oldest daughter when she takes, usually takes off from her plate and gives her son, he is only two and a half and anyhow he only eats from what "Ima takes". If I serve him separately he gets last unless he is kvetchy in which case my daughter hands him something to keep him busy like a cherry tomato or whatever and he waits his turn.
Guests - non Jews, frei and very modern, ladies first. Frum and charedi - men first. Which men first? If they are of the same stature, oldest first. If they are not and you have rabbonim...oy, I remember as a kid learning very fast what the hierarchy was of each group of rabbonim my parents would have over. Rosh yeshiva before stam rov, but dayan before rosh yeshiva. Anyone with a government rabbinical job was always a red herring - like having over the rav roshi and his wife - because it really depended on the individual group, some like Rav Goren in his time who my parents knew well, were incredible characters and were capable of taking the serving tray out of my hands and handing it around (yes!) while others like Rav Lau always ask their wives first what they want (and G-d help him with a wife like he has if he forgot to do so!) etc. Yes these are real situations and I grew up with all these people. Real Charedi roshei yeshivot were much easier because then we ate separately and had mens' tables and women's tables set up and of course the men's table would be served first. The question was always who to bring the food to first at that table.
Those of you who are shaking your heads, I may be shtark MO but as you can see I live in and grew up in a different world than many of you. Old fashioned frum eastern european or old fashioned frum yekkim would recognize this immediately. Ruchel it really WAS like this in many many places, actually and it is still is today.
Serving style - I serve. When it's just me and dh I serve and he often helps me clean off. If I am busy in the kitchen with the food cooking or heating up he will begin sometimes to set the table. Depends though on the time of the year, often if mincha=maariv are early he will just walk in when it's time to eat and then table is already set. If it's the whole family the girls will sometimes set the table if they are around and they will help clean off, boys less. They will take out the garbage and as was mentioned, do the heavy shlepping of which b"h there is more than enough (moving the stove, fridge, furniture, carrying bags up from downstairs when I do a big shop, etc.).
I know lots of people who plate, it's elegant as someone else wrote, lots of fancy dinners I have been to, including in the King David, come plated. Also at people's homes when they have fancy dinners. I don't plate as b"h we have enough but you people who haven't seen plating - let me tell you, you don't know any REALLY poor people and there are plenty around. Because they sure don't have enough to go around and this way everyone gets an even portion.
We serve in serving dishes and platters. I bring out and first offer to my husband, then if we have choshuver guests I serve, if it is family the platter goes around but the order of seating is also the order of importance. My son in law next to my husband, and then my daughter, my son, his wife (who is older than my middle and younger daughter), then the other two girls by age, my youngest son and me next to my husband. As said, food is put on my plate by my husband either before he takes or if I insist, after he takes and then goes to my son in law, who offers to his brother in law, both men usually offer their wives before themselves and yes - you are permitted in such a setting to be mochel kvod hatorah if it is for your wife. The only situation where it would be a problem would be if a husband and wife are not sitting next to each other but at separate tables, mens and women's and then the man, if he is given first with the men, should take first before the women get. There is a whole inyan involved of kovod and hierarchy that I won't go into but it has a halochic basis.
If I serve individual portions it goes by the same order.
In my house and in my parental house and my grandparents' house and those of the kids I grew up with who are by now grandmothers, in my sister in law and brother in law's house, it's the same. Mother serves. Mother and daughters clean up. Father can help if he wants to but it is the mother's domain. If you don't have girls boys can help clear up. We don't have a free for all in the kitchen, one person in there at a time. We do not put things on the table stam ever and say "dig in". Not done in our home. Children always wait for parents or adults unless they are cranky babies when they are given , as I wrote in the other post, something tiny to tide them over, but not their "meal". They learn to wait from age zilch. Builds character and derekh eretz. Chinuch, ever hear that word? From the moment a child is old enough to understand. Hence there is very little "chinuch" to a 7 month old but a 17 month old? Certainly.
Yirah - literally fear.
unlike kovod - honor - yirah is usually expressed in the absence of behavior and not in the presence thereof.
Therefore asking how one expresses yirah is a contradiction in a sense.
I already explained that in our house it is expressed by NOT calling me "she", which kids have more of a tendency to do with mothers who are around more than with fathers. "But SHE said it was ok"...no no no it has to be "but MOMMY said it is ok".
Other expressions or rather non-expressions of Yirah are NOT to do various things which are common with mothers, all falling into the category of NOT being "too familiar". NOT using various expressions, usually the kind children would more commonly use with friends, which one would more commonly use with a mother and not a father. Here's an example. I dispise the phrase "lo matim li" which is a kind of catchall that young people use today for "I don't want to". And I have told my kids this. It's the kind of answer that one would more commonly give a mother and not a father with whom, in a traditional family, one is a bit more distantive with. The kids know that they shouldn't use it with me either. That's part of Yirah.
So what is kovod? Holding your father's chair for him. Naturally kids, who see their mother shlep around the kitchen and the house and do all these household things see how tired she is and would more naturall think "mommy is tired, let's hold the chair open for her to sit down in" etc. But Kovod for a father first means automatically holding your father's chair first.
It's a kind of backwards "ladies' first" thing. And yes, there is a total contradiction here between western values and Torah ones.
Let's say like walking through a door. Who goes first. A Talmid chochom or a woman? In the western world no matter who the man is and no matter who the lady is, it's chivalry, "ladies first." but in the religious value scale a man, per se, is more learned than a woman, per se, and he is also commanded to learn torah while she is not (the reason for the brocho shelo osani isha) which means he is automatically, unless proven otherwise, the vessel of the torah. Hence he should be given preference to walk through the door first unless he is an apikores for example and she is a learned woman. A man is permitted to let his wife through first out of love (not stam "chivalry") and care for her welfare to watch over her from behind (which was the idea of "ladies first" actually, through doors and the like) and in public in the western world there are rabbonim who will let a lady go first (even though technically he shouldn't so as not to be behind her, causing a potential breach in tznius) because of "ma yomru" as we are surrounded with non jews and frei and it becomes a chillul hashem if he is mocked by his surroundings for not keeping to "ladies first" chivalry. In a totally frum world however it is a different story.
The bottom line, which will lead to my last post for now, is that it is really important for a woman to be learned in the sense of knowing practical halocho and what goes behind it, the seder adifut (order of priorities) in terms of decisions (such as how to act in western public versus in an all frum group, or how to act when serving frei as opposed to frum yidden who would (not that all would as we see here on this board) appreciate the delicacy behind the decision who to serve first and why...
Ladies. don't be ignorant of the din, the nohag, the reasons behind it, and when and why and under what circumstances western takes precedent even to Torah, but for torah reasons (such as public chillul hashem).
Saw - give me the halochic source that this Rov you mention uses to say why a woman can't give her husband a present under the chuppah, as long as it is AFTER his giving her the ring before 2 kosher eidim? (and there are those, daa's miut who say after the reading of the kesuba)???
After all, in sefaradi and many Ashkenazi EY chasunahs the chossen gets a tallis under the chuppah as a PRESENT from his wife and/or her family which he puts on, makes a brocho over, and it is placed over both members of the couple and this in the MIDDLE of the wedding ceremony. A tallis is worth as much if not more than a men's wedding ring, it is a gift, it interrupts the continuity of the ceremony and it is NOT a halochic integral part of the ceremony but has become a custom, nothing more.
The only thing he can claim is "ma yomru" that is is a "non jewish custom" for a wife to give a husband a wedding ring, but then it is even more of a non jewish custom for a Jewish man to wear a wedding ring and in those circles where it is not considered a non jewish custom, meaning that enough Jewish frum men wear wedding rings such as among the MO, it is also not a non jewish custom to give it under the chuppah. As long as it doesn't interfere in the halochic part of the kinyan which it doesn't if you make a declarative statement about it being a present and NOT being part of the eirusin/kiddushin/nisuin cycle.
He also can't claim that it's a hafsaka to the ceremony as it happens after the halochic part of it.
This happens to be an inyan that I have learned in depth with rabbonim of all sectors where there is even a chance that a man would wear a wedding ring. Obviously in virtually all charedi sectors that's not an issue. But those are the only considerations in the MO world. Hafsoko of the halochic part of the ceremony; being "chukas hagoyim". If done correctly, neither are an issue as there is absolutely no "kinyan" that a woman can do to a man or even something remotely resembling one.
What therefore is the halochic basis for what this Rov said about it not being allowed?
wow...I saw when this thread started all those weeks ago and just check it last night and commented on the serving thing (men first then women?? etc) and then read all these 'no diaper changing' rules...
I don't know what the whole thread was (and how it got there!) but I think that's so awful that a father thinks it is beneath him to change a diaper. I like the taking out the trash mashal. Great rabbanim take out garbage. and even it not..uch, that disgusts me...
Everyone CAN change diapers if necessary, just like if necessary I CAN take out the garbage, but in my home at least I did diapers if I was around, not dh. If I was really busy with something else I couldn't stop and it was urgent then he would do it, but mostly and primarily it was my job. Remember though that unlike today with the easy tabs on disposables, once upon a time diapers were a real balagan. AT least here in EY. You used a cloth diaper which you had to fold a certain way and then put on and then tie in front and then flip the baby over and tuck in in the back (I bet you younger ladies are shaking your heads and trying to figure this out, anyone my age could eventually do it blindfolded) and inside we used a diaper liner which if you were poor you either didn't use or you could re-use and wash if it was just wet and not dirty...and when the baby made something big then it got into the liner and you could throw it out and unless it was liquidy the diaper was less soiled and you had to know how to gather it up and twist the liner and throw it out and then of course there were no wipes yet so it was wetting toilet paper and wiping off and throwing out in the toilet...a whole megillah!
My father z"l could change diapers too. Even with this balagan. But it was usually more of a mother's thing as it wasn't particularly simple.
But in my generation too mothers did most of the cooking as well. Spheres of influence. Not that a man didn't know HOW to cook but he didn't spend his time on that but on other male things which weren't women's domain. If there was a problem however he could do it, just as he could change diapers.
Today when it's a ten second thing and not three to five minutes of balagan, it's a lot easier for everyone.
Spoon it's not that it is BENEATH anyone.
It's priorities.
A Man's priority in his non working time is to learn torah. If his wife's priority was the same babies would have been created by the ribono shel olam being able to diaper themselves!
But they weren't so someone has to do it.
If you are cooking and your husband is learning are you going to say "moishe, the baby is crying go see if he needs a diaper change!!!"???? Or will you turn the fire down and have a look what is going on?
If both parties are sitting together it's a tossup, if your husband is sitting watching TV and you are busy working at something, better he should go. If you are both working at vochadig things...well it's also natural inclination. Some men are really squeamish about things, we women, giving birth, getting periods etc. aren't simply because we spend our lives from puberty dealing with bodily fluids and getting rid of them. But it's not a question of beneath.
Yes great choshuver rabbonim also change diapers if necessary. But the emphasis is on necessary. If it is for the sake of "equality"....oy vey is mir. G-d help us.
It is almost because he took last that I have this wonderful respect for my father. He wanted to make sure that everyone at the table got something before he took.
