Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
How do you really know none of the girls is resentful? Are you really so sure in your family? Maybe they just feel low and so don't think they are worth it.
Ok, so I and my siblings are not resentful, neither are my dhs sisters, and from the ones I know well enough, based on the lifestyle and choices they make, I don't think others are either. Girls are not made to feel low. They are lauded for their accomplishments both in Judaism and otherwise, and are not considered less worthy than their brothers. They recognize that they have different roles in life, and each is encouraged and praised for accomplishments in his or her own realm. How does kavod hatorah lead to inferiority of women? Only those who are missing pieces in their overall hashkafa can come to that conclusion.
So how do you make up for their brothers being so well treated before them? Actually, one thing I've sensed all along in this "male first" part of the camp thread is jealousy of those who don't have a male first household.
I don't get it. How is having my brother served before me so traumatic that I need something to make up for it? Trust me, my brothers have had plenty of times that they envy ME for opportunities I had that they did not.
I'm not sure how I can possibly be perceived as jealous of other lifestyles. I chose the one I did, and I don't regret it. I'm presenting our perspective to those for whom it is novel. Everyone is welcome to continue doing as they have for the past twenty or fifty or two hundred years. I'm not shocked that you don't do as I do, why are you shocked that I do things this way?
I don't care what you do, honestly I don't. But you and others keep trying to assert that boys first is the only way.
But I'm asking you what opportunities do the girls in your family, not just you, but girls in general have, that is better than what the boys have?
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
Freidasima, I've been reading your posts with great interest and would appreciate if you could answer this question: given that the torah says "ish imo v'aviv tira'u", putting the mother first, how do you express that/ carry that out in your house?
That's a really good question.
Thanks Tablepoetry. I'm very much looking forward to seeing Freidasima's reply to this.
mabellevie, lets say you have a brother who bunks off learning at every opportunity, and his sister (the same age) who loves learning and is a huge baalas chesed to boot. She helps out the kollel family next door every evening (enabling mr next door to learn in kollel, becasue if his wife would not have that help he would probably have to leave kollel)
So you still serve this boy first?
This whole thing is tricky.
If I would have been treated like this at home maybe I would have gone otd.
In reality I highly doubt families are saying to thier daughters: Do not take any food until chaim has had. What probably happens is father gets first, the boys sit next to theri father so they get next.
the point is according to you, how ever wonderful a girl is, however exemplery her choices in life, she will never ever be as good as her brother, however terrible his choices in life, however uunexemplery his life, just becasue he supposedly spends time every day learning gemara.
How do you make the jump from "my brother spends his days immersed in Talmud Torah, and kavod hatorah is forthcoming" to "I will never be as good as him"? That's what I mean when I say the overall chinuch and hashkafa is missing crucial elements.
mabellevie, lets say you have a brother who bunks off learning at every opportunity, and his sister (the same age) who loves learning and is a huge baalas chesed to boot. She helps out the kollel family next door every evening (enabling mr next door to learn in kollel, becasue if his wife would not have that help he would probably have to leave kollel)
So you still serve this boy first?
This whole thing is tricky.
If I would have been treated like this at home maybe I would have gone otd.
In reality I highly doubt families are saying to thier daughters: Do not take any food until chaim has had. What probably happens is father gets first, the boys sit next to theri father so they get next.
the point is according to you, how ever wonderful a girl is, however exemplery her choices in life, she will never ever be as good as her brother, however terrible his choices in life, however uunexemplery his life, just becasue he supposedly spends time every day learning gemara.
In one posuk, the father is listed first, in the other, the mother is listed first. That goes tot each us, that nature is children fear a father and obey him out of fear. Children like a mother and obey her out of respect. So the posuk tell sus, Kabbeid es avichah, respect your father, and also your mother whom you respect anyway. And then Ish imoi v'aviv tiraui, fear your mother, just as you fear your father.
Maybe some kids fear their mothers more than their fathers, and maybe some kids respect their dads more than their moms, but the torah was talking about the general, typical population.
HR, I have never, ever stated or implied that boys first is the only way. I have stated that I've experienced it as part of a larger picture in homes across the globe, with no ill results.
Ok, example: my husbands sisters all took a trip to Spain on their winter break. He did not join them, because his yeshiva was still in session and there was no reason for a teenage boy to miss two weeks of yeshiva to sightsee.
In one posuk, the father is listed first, in the other, the mother is listed first. That goes tot each us, that nature is children fear a father and obey him out of fear. Children like a mother and obey her out of respect. So the posuk tell sus, Kabbeid es avichah, respect your father, and also your mother whom you respect anyway. And then Ish imoi v'aviv tiraui, fear your mother, just as you fear your father.
Maybe some kids fear their mothers more than their fathers, and maybe some kids respect their dads more than their moms, but the torah was talking about the general, typical population.
In one posuk, the father is listed first, in the other, the mother is listed first. That goes tot each us, that nature is children fear a father and obey him out of fear. Children like a mother and obey her out of respect. So the posuk tell sus, Kabbeid es avichah, respect your father, and also your mother whom you respect anyway. And then Ish imoi v'aviv tiraui, fear your mother, just as you fear your father.
Maybe some kids fear their mothers more than their fathers, and maybe some kids respect their dads more than their moms, but the torah was talking about the general, typical population.
HR, I have never, ever stated or implied that boys first is the only way. I have stated that I've experienced it as part of a larger picture in homes across the globe, with no ill results.
Ok, example: my husbands sisters all took a trip to Spain on their winter break. He did not join them, because his yeshiva was still in session and there was no reason for a teenage boy to miss two weeks of yeshiva to sightsee.
It sounds as if you are contradicting yourself here. Is it boys first in homes across the globe? Or is it boys first in some things and not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
BTW, I DO know of negative reactions, so there are ill resultss.
I'm afraid many boys who see their father consistently being treated as more worthy than their mother, and their sisters being treated the same compared to them, will be UNABLE to treat their wife "better than themselves", or even just as good.
I see it is another thing I will have to check when DD is in shidduchim... as she comes from a family where her 80 yr old grandfather has to be told by the 25 yr younger grandmother to NOT get up again to get something for her in the kitchen.
I assumed checking behaviour during dating would be telling enough, but what if when they are married he demands things totally different? oy oy. I guess we will have to discuss with the boy as it's NOT for us to have a daughter or granddaughters treated in this way...
In one posuk, the father is listed first, in the other, the mother is listed first. That goes tot each us, that nature is children fear a father and obey him out of fear. Children like a mother and obey her out of respect. So the posuk tell sus, Kabbeid es avichah, respect your father, and also your mother whom you respect anyway. And then Ish imoi v'aviv tiraui, fear your mother, just as you fear your father.
Maybe some kids fear their mothers more than their fathers, and maybe some kids respect their dads more than their moms, but the torah was talking about the general, typical population.
That's what I learned.
You went to my chassidishe school? OMG!!!!
I was the third girl from the right, fourth row. I use to throw spitballs..how could you forget? Now I'm insulted
I'm afraid many boys who see their father consistently being treated as more worthy than their mother, and their sisters being treated the same compared to them, will be UNABLE to treat their wife "better than themselves", or even just as good.
I see it is another thing I will have to check when DD is in shidduchim... as she comes from a family where her 80 yr old grandfather has to be told by the 25 yr younger grandmother to NOT get up again to get something for her in the kitchen.
I assumed checking behaviour during dating would be telling enough, but what if when they are married he demands things totally different? oy oy. I guess we will have to discuss with the boy as it's NOT for us to have a daughter or granddaughters treated in this way...
Your grandfather sounds so sweet! He reminds me of this old French gentleman whose house I was cleaning...I brought him some water and he kissed my hand! Such a sweetie.
HR, I have never, ever stated or implied that boys first is the only way. I have stated that I've experienced it as part of a larger picture in homes across the globe, with no ill results.
Ok, example: my husbands sisters all took a trip to Spain on their winter break. He did not join them, because his yeshiva was still in session and there was no reason for a teenage boy to miss two weeks of yeshiva to sightsee.
It sounds as if you are contradicting yourself here. Is it boys first in homes across the globe? Or is it boys first in some things and not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
BTW, I DO know of negative reactions, so there are ill resultss.
What's the contradiction? I have seen boys being served first in homes across the globe. I would be very surprised if there were ill results exclusively from this aspect, with an otherwise solid chinuch/hashkafa. Then again, there are kids from wonderful homes who go otd, so what does that prove?
HR, I have never, ever stated or implied that boys first is the only way. I have stated that I've experienced it as part of a larger picture in homes across the globe, with no ill results.
Ok, example: my husbands sisters all took a trip to Spain on their winter break. He did not join them, because his yeshiva was still in session and there was no reason for a teenage boy to miss two weeks of yeshiva to sightsee.
It sounds as if you are contradicting yourself here. Is it boys first in homes across the globe? Or is it boys first in some things and not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
BTW, I DO know of negative reactions, so there are ill resultss.
What's the contradiction? I have seen boys being served first in homes across the globe. I would be very surprised if there were ill results exclusively from this aspect, with an otherwise solid chinuch/hashkafa. Then again, there are kids from wonderful homes who go otd, so what does that prove?
You still aren't answering the question. Is it boys first in homes across the globe (and in all things ~ implied, not stated) or is it boys first in something not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
I'm afraid many boys who see their father consistently being treated as more worthy than their mother, and their sisters being treated the same compared to them, will be UNABLE to treat their wife "better than themselves", or even just as good.
I see it is another thing I will have to check when DD is in shidduchim... as she comes from a family where her 80 yr old grandfather has to be told by the 25 yr younger grandmother to NOT get up again to get something for her in the kitchen.
I assumed checking behaviour during dating would be telling enough, but what if when they are married he demands things totally different? oy oy. I guess we will have to discuss with the boy as it's NOT for us to have a daughter or granddaughters treated in this way...
Ruchel, I could express the same concern with regard to a girl not knowing how to accord respect toward her husband. Obviously, everyone has to do their part. We mentioned this already. He thinks about her, she thinks about him.
Yup, and that's why we will teach OUR halachot to our children, and later when will teach them what THEY have to do towards a spouse. Not what others have to do for their spouse. Thinking about the husband doesn't have to materialize in a way that is not meaningful to your culture (washing feet), or in a way the husband doesn't want, or in a way you learned is not needed for you.
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
HR, I have never, ever stated or implied that boys first is the only way. I have stated that I've experienced it as part of a larger picture in homes across the globe, with no ill results.
Ok, example: my husbands sisters all took a trip to Spain on their winter break. He did not join them, because his yeshiva was still in session and there was no reason for a teenage boy to miss two weeks of yeshiva to sightsee.
It sounds as if you are contradicting yourself here. Is it boys first in homes across the globe? Or is it boys first in some things and not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
BTW, I DO know of negative reactions, so there are ill resultss.
What's the contradiction? I have seen boys being served first in homes across the globe. I would be very surprised if there were ill results exclusively from this aspect, with an otherwise solid chinuch/hashkafa. Then again, there are kids from wonderful homes who go otd, so what does that prove?
You still aren't answering the question. Is it boys first in homes across the globe (and in all things ~ implied, not stated) or is it boys first in something not others? In what things are GIRLS first?
Ok, got it now. All I have seen (especially in homes outside my own) is boys being served first. Chazal specifically talk about serving food when they discuss issues of kavod, so it makes sense to apply it there. In other cases, unless there is an outright talmid chcham involved, I don't think halacha mandates boys getting first pick or a better share just by virtue of Torah learning. Otherwise, it appears as though children receive equal loving treatment from their parents. Equal doesn't mean all get exactly the same, equal means all feel as though they are receiving an equivalent amount.
Ok, got it now. All I have seen (especially in homes outside my own) is boys being served first. Chazal specifically talk about serving food when they discuss issues of kavod, so it makes sense to apply it there. In other cases, unless there is an outright talmid chcham involved, I don't think halacha mandates boys getting first pick or a better share just by virtue of Torah learning. Otherwise, it appears as though children receive equal loving treatment from their parents. Equal doesn't mean all get exactly the same, equal means all feel as though they are receiving an equivalent amount.
OK, so many of us have NOT seen boys getting first. If you want to a household and girls got served first, would it upset you? Your dh? Your sons? If so why.
And part of the other question was whether girls ever got privileges the boys didn't have.
I use to throw spitballs..how could you forget? Now I'm insulted 
