Sorry to butt in with my experience...
When I was a little girl my grandmother (Russian) was visiting. There were only two cookies or whatever left on the plate, and I reached for one. My grandmother took it away from me and gave one each to my two brothers, (also little kids) saying, "They learn Torah, they get the cookies."
I remember, even as a five year old, my mother being furious and opening a fresh packet of cookies and giving me two, saying loudly that I was getting two "because you are my big girl and learn Torah and help with the baby."
Trust me, if my mother had not intervened, I would have grown up with very bitter feelings toward Torah and boys who learn it. As it was, I saw it as one of my grandmother's idiosyncracies and ignored it (although you see I remember it until today, close to twenty-five years later).
I am not getting involved in whether fathers are treated differently than mothers, but brothers versus sisters??
The poor girl who gets served during dating, and suddenly after the chupa she is expected to always serve him... is she even told or does she learn the hard way?
I know more frum families where the husband is old fashioned and serves the wife, than the opposite. In most, no one serves always the other as a rule.
I would serve my husband first if I served everyone, but it's not a "thing" for him if I serve or not. It's also not a thing for him if I make the bed, he makes it, the cleaning lady makes it... he doesn't care for all these things.
I have seen serving the kids before yourself but I don't find it practical. We teach everyone must be served before eating so they would have to wait more, and kavod wise it makes more sense for the parents to be served first.
I generally see kids served by age. I can imagine boys came before girls once upon a time LOL but today, to go out of your way to serve that way? Nah. Not in Europe at least, that I can see.
Ruchel, my experience in France has been: females bring food to the table. Father is either served or serves himself. Next mother is either served or serves herself. If she is away from the table, kids put food on her plate. Then boys take food, then girls. Not saying every family does this, but it has been my personal French experience. I have seen this in many homes in Israel and the US as well. All happy, well adjusted families.
I have never, ever seen this in Israel. Ever. What kind of family did you see it in? And in 'many' homes? Frankly, I"m shocked.
I can understand serving children by age - but by gender? I wouldn't take my kids to eat at a family like that.
What kind of families? Those in which the boys spend their days learning Torah in yeshiva. I don't mean young children, I mean children who are old enough to be treated with kavod due to kavod hatorah. I mentioned that already. What do you have against kavod hatorah? As a frum Jew, I'm happy to have my children experience kavod hatorah.
Ummm...I have nothing against kavod haTorah. I just don't find it derech eretz at all for a 13 year old boy to be served before his 15 year old sister, no matter which yeshiva he's studying in. Rememeber, derech eretz kadma laTorah.
To say nothing of bigger age gaps....a 13 year old before his 20 year old sister? I can't imagine how girls in such families must feel. Or perhaps I can imagine....they must feel that whatever they do in their life they will be nowhere near as important as their little brothers.
But your daughters and the women should be treated with Kavod for enabling the men to learn.
Of course. There is no place for anything but respect in a family. Halachically, though, men who learn Torah are accorded more respect in practice by others than the women who support them.
But your daughters and the women should be treated with Kavod for enabling the men to learn.
Of course. There is no place for anything but respect in a family. Halachically, though, men who learn Torah are accorded more respect in practice by others than the women who support them.
So your young sons get served before their bigger sisters? See to me that is utterly disrespectful. But if your kids ever come to my house I'll serve the girls first, I mean I'll do the proportion thing, just to give them some perspective.
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
Sorry to butt in with my experience...
When I was a little girl my grandmother (Russian) was visiting. There were only two cookies or whatever left on the plate, and I reached for one. My grandmother took it away from me and gave one each to my two brothers, (also little kids) saying, "They learn Torah, they get the cookies."
I remember, even as a five year old, my mother being furious and opening a fresh packet of cookies and giving me two, saying loudly that I was getting two "because you are my big girl and learn Torah and help with the baby."
Trust me, if my mother had not intervened, I would have grown up with very bitter feelings toward Torah and boys who learn it. As it was, I saw it as one of my grandmother's idiosyncracies and ignored it (although you see I remember it until today, close to twenty-five years later).
I am not getting involved in whether fathers are treated differently than mothers, but brothers versus sisters??
This type of behavior made my great-grandmother go off the derech completely, my grandmother brought things back a little, but my great-grandmother's hatred for Torah percolated down to her son...It was I who brought it back. Kudos to your mother.
But your daughters and the women should be treated with Kavod for enabling the men to learn.
Of course. There is no place for anything but respect in a family. Halachically, though, men who learn Torah are accorded more respect in practice by others than the women who support them.
So your young sons get served before their bigger sisters? See to me that is utterly disrespectful. But if your kids ever come to my house I'll serve the girls first, I mean I'll do the proportion thing, just to give them some perspective.
I don't have kids that old yet. When the boys are the age of kavod hatorah, they will be served first. If my girls have a problem with it, it means that my overall chinuch is lacking. I hope that won't be the case. Why does age come before kavod hatorah? Who set that order of respect?
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
How do you really know none of the girls is resentful? Are you really so sure in your family? Maybe they just feel low and so don't think they are worth it.
Why are people arguing over what they've observed in different families? Is this a discussion about what is normal or about what the Torah tells us to do? If you are from a different culture, what's new? Culture and Torah are two different things. We know that.
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
No, sorry, I wouldn't want to be a guest at a home where things were conducted like this - at least not with my kids. Or not with the younger kids who might internalize values I oppose. Althoug I think older teens perhaps could view this as a culture comparison opportunity.
So I"m wondering....what other areas of life does this affect? If boys deserve more kavod because they're learning Torah, then it can't just be expressed in the order of serving. Surely if there are only a few treats at home you reserve them for the boys, so they can have strength to learn Torah? Or if there are two comfortable kids' beds and two cheap ones, the boys must obviously get the comfy ones, to give them strength? If you only have two umbrellas and the kids need to walk out in the rain, surely the boys get umbrella so they don't chas vechalila get sick and miss yeshiva? Etc.
I'm curious also what happens if one boy isn't a learner. He just doesn't grasp a thing, whether because of lack of desire of lack of ability. So he isn't learning Torah. Does he also get served before his big sisters?
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
How do you really know none of the girls is resentful? Are you really so sure in your family? Maybe they just feel low and so don't think they are worth it.
Ok, so I and my siblings are not resentful, neither are my dhs sisters, and from the ones I know well enough, based on the lifestyle and choices they make, I don't think others are either. Girls are not made to feel low. They are lauded for their accomplishments both in Judaism and otherwise, and are not considered less worthy than their brothers. They recognize that they have different roles in life, and each is encouraged and praised for accomplishments in his or her own realm. How does kavod hatorah lead to inferiority of women? Only those who are missing pieces in their overall hashkafa can come to that conclusion.
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
How do you really know none of the girls is resentful? Are you really so sure in your family? Maybe they just feel low and so don't think they are worth it.
Ok, so I and my siblings are not resentful, neither are my dhs sisters, and from the ones I know well enough, based on the lifestyle and choices they make, I don't think others are either. Girls are not made to feel low. They are lauded for their accomplishments both in Judaism and otherwise, and are not considered less worthy than their brothers. They recognize that they have different roles in life, and each is encouraged and praised for accomplishments in his or her own realm. How does kavod hatorah lead to inferiority of women? Only those who are missing pieces in their overall hashkafa can come to that conclusion.
So how do you make up for their brothers being so well treated before them? Actually, one thing I've sensed all along in this "male first" part of the camp thread is jealousy of those who don't have a male first household.
Some posters are annoyed being told the way their frum family does, and their rav does/holds, is not good enough. Not everyone is saying that, but some clearly are. Well, Hashem decided on asseh lecha rav and on 70 panim le Torah (and even on derech eretz kadma laTorah!) so they should take it up with him!! Because we are just following that.
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
No, sorry, I wouldn't want to be a guest at a home where things were conducted like this - at least not with my kids. Or not with the younger kids who might internalize values I oppose. Althoug I think older teens perhaps could view this as a culture comparison opportunity.
So I"m wondering....what other areas of life does this affect? If boys deserve more kavod because they're learning Torah, then it can't just be expressed in the order of serving. Surely if there are only a few treats at home you reserve them for the boys, so they can have strength to learn Torah? Or if there are two comfortable kids' beds and two cheap ones, the boys must obviously get the comfy ones, to give them strength? If you only have two umbrellas and the kids need to walk out in the rain, surely the boys get umbrella so they don't chas vechalila get sick and miss yeshiva? Etc.
I'm curious also what happens if one boy isn't a learner. He just doesn't grasp a thing, whether because of lack of desire of lack of ability. So he isn't learning Torah. Does he also get served before his big sisters?
I guess I might be more open minded, then. I have no problem with my kids witnessing most things that are outside our hashkafa (other than abuse or extremely explicit behaviors). Either they ask and I explain, or they assume that different folks have different strokes.
I don't know of anyone who carries this over into other areas of life, except in cases where the boy is a recognized Talmid chacham. Then he is treated as one. Yea, even if he's thirty five, he gets served before him forty five year old sister. Scandalous.
A talmid chacham would probably refuse being served "beshitta" (as opposed to "because it just happened") before an older sibling. Bash all you like, this is what I see, read and hear. I would feel quite gaavadik allowing it, even if I happened to be the chief rabbi. And for all we know, the non talmid chacham may be a baal middos and a baal chessed, just not as showy. So how do we judge what people are worth? It works when it is a natural hierarchy (father over son type) only. A talmid chacham is also humble and EVEN if he deserved it.
Ok, table, you are entitled to raise tour family as you wish. None of the girls I know from these families feel anything negative. This is one piece in an entire hashkafa. I an see how someone without the entire hashkafa would be resentful about something like this. Anyway, I wasn't saying it must be done, at all. I'm saying it is done, even in Ruchel's country, where she has never experienced it.
I guess you won't want to have a meal in my home if you're ever in the area.
How do you really know none of the girls is resentful? Are you really so sure in your family? Maybe they just feel low and so don't think they are worth it.
Ok, so I and my siblings are not resentful, neither are my dhs sisters, and from the ones I know well enough, based on the lifestyle and choices they make, I don't think others are either. Girls are not made to feel low. They are lauded for their accomplishments both in Judaism and otherwise, and are not considered less worthy than their brothers. They recognize that they have different roles in life, and each is encouraged and praised for accomplishments in his or her own realm. How does kavod hatorah lead to inferiority of women? Only those who are missing pieces in their overall hashkafa can come to that conclusion.
So how do you make up for their brothers being so well treated before them? Actually, one thing I've sensed all along in this "male first" part of the camp thread is jealousy of those who don't have a male first household.
I don't get it. How is having my brother served before me so traumatic that I need something to make up for it? Trust me, my brothers have had plenty of times that they envy ME for opportunities I had that they did not.
I'm not sure how I can possibly be perceived as jealous of other lifestyles. I chose the one I did, and I don't regret it. I'm presenting our perspective to those for whom it is novel. Everyone is welcome to continue doing as they have for the past twenty or fifty or two hundred years. I'm not shocked that you don't do as I do, why are you shocked that I do things this way?
A talmid chacham would probably refuse being served "beshitta" (as opposed to "because it just happened") before an older sibling. Bash all you like, this is what I see, read and hear. I would feel quite gaavadik allowing it, even if I happened to be the chief rabbi. And for all we know, the non talmid chacham may be a baal middos and a baal chessed, just not as showy. So how do we judge what people are worth? It works when it is a natural hierarchy (father over son type) only. A talmid chacham is also humble and EVEN if he deserved it.
Which talmid chacham have you seen, heard or read this about? There is no basis for serving according to age before accounting for status as talmid chacham. The honor is not theirs, it is honor for the Torah. It is not anyone's right to be mochel on the Torahs kavod.
This reminds me of a story. One of my friends grew up in one of the last "shtetlech" in Europe. Very charedi family, tons (7? 9? 11? can't remember) of siblings, nothing "progressist" going on.
She is a bit older than me, and was telling me of her past. After HS she and her sisters went to great sems including abroad. I'm always gathering chinuch information, so I asked her where, and where the brothers went.
There was no money left for yeshivot after the sems were paid, she told me, so the boys went to kollelim around. I told her I was a bit surprised, as men have the mitsva to learn, that the parents didn't "cut the pear in half" and send everyone to local sems/yeshivot. She laughed and told me thats what she would have done - but her parents are very old fashioned, to them the woman is the heart of the household and she also transmits Judaism... so girls went first.
mabellevie, lets say you have a brother who bunks off learning at every opportunity, and his sister (the same age) who loves learning and is a huge baalas chesed to boot. She helps out the kollel family next door every evening (enabling mr next door to learn in kollel, becasue if his wife would not have that help he would probably have to leave kollel)
So you still serve this boy first?
This whole thing is tricky.
If I would have been treated like this at home maybe I would have gone otd.
In reality I highly doubt families are saying to thier daughters: Do not take any food until chaim has had. What probably happens is father gets first, the boys sit next to theri father so they get next.
the point is according to you, how ever wonderful a girl is, however exemplery her choices in life, she will never ever be as good as her brother, however terrible his choices in life, however uunexemplery his life, just becasue he supposedly spends time every day learning gemara.
