I strongly believe in a parent-child hierarchy. Just not in a father-wife-child hierarchy.
Ditto. At least no father-wife hierarchy expressed in every day life except than referring to dad as authority, but nothing to show my being subservient (BH!).
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Again, the halacha .....I will let others answer.
Halacha as is applied, is very different from what FS needs to do, by many rabbanim. In my and dh's experience.
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I think both parents should be served first. Kibbud av veaim is written in my chumash.
If there is a mamosh a shortage of food and you are worried the kids will go to bed hungry I hope the father too will give up his portion for his kids. not just the mother.
All that. If anything, even animals know that the male "has to" give some of his food to the young AND the female.
I went ahead and emailed my grandma about the respect issue. I asked her to answer about her OWN grandparents, and to ask my saba for the same.
"No, our grandmothers did not stand up when the husband entered the room and children did not stand for their father. We stood when our father blessed us by putting his hand on our heads, before the erev shabbes meal".
I like to think my grandparents' grandparents were not modern, feminist or egalitarian...
Don't they look dangerously subversive?
The poor girl who gets served during dating, and suddenly after the chupa she is expected to always serve him... is she even told or does she learn the hard way?
I know more frum families where the husband is old fashioned and serves the wife, than the opposite. In most, no one serves always the other as a rule.
I would serve my husband first if I served everyone, but it's not a "thing" for him if I serve or not. It's also not a thing for him if I make the bed, he makes it, the cleaning lady makes it... he doesn't care for all these things.
I have seen serving the kids before yourself but I don't find it practical. We teach everyone must be served before eating so they would have to wait more, and kavod wise it makes more sense for the parents to be served first.
I generally see kids served by age. I can imagine boys came before girls once upon a time LOL but today, to go out of your way to serve that way? Nah. Not in Europe at least, that I can see.
Ruchel, my experience in France has been: females bring food to the table. Father is either served or serves himself. Next mother is either served or serves herself. If she is away from the table, kids put food on her plate. Then boys take food, then girls. Not saying every family does this, but it has been my personal French experience. I have seen this in many homes in Israel and the US as well. All happy, well adjusted families.
Some of these things I have seen a lot, sometimes, or not at all. Boys before girls? Can't remember that. And I would have noticed... (!)
Sure, out of kavod hatorah. These were all learned people. I saw this is Switzerland, as well. Oh, and guests are served before family's kids- males, then females.
If my husband leaves the table for whatever reason before he takes food, I always ask if he minds me serving myself first. He always says no problem. But I always ask.
Ruchel for the one experience of your grandmother or two of grandmother and grandfather I can bring you a hundred examples of the opposite.
So where does this lead us?
Have you ever seen talmidim in a yeshiva stand up when a Rov walks in? Here in EY you can see it over and over, it's quite normal. Same respect given to a father in various families that I have seen, including ours, and it used to be more common 100 years ago, particularly in Eastern Europe and of course in Oriental countries where children would kiss their father's hand as well as standing up. It's a sign of respect. Mothers teach their children that respect for their husband by often standing up as well, although it is rarer today to see it between husband and wife alone (although if you come to visit us you will see it daily!).
I'm with MaBelle Vie, in my travels in Europe I have usually seen the mother bring the food to the table, the father get served first and then the children. And yes they are all well adjusted frum families.
But more than that, they are families where a premium is put on derekh eretz. You won't hear those kids saying certain words or doing certain things that other kids do as their behavior is all part of a general form of how it is ok to act, what it is ok to say, etc. That's not to say that kids who don't do this can't have nice manners and derekh eretz. However it's been my experience that kids brought up in that kind of household are usually of a certain very aidel behavior
(and to connect this to camp, such kids brought up with such derekh eretz from age zilch if they are healthy kids, are not the kind that are so difficult that mothers just want to get rid of them to CAMP during the summer even if they have to take zedoko, just so that they can go about their daily business)...
Some of these things I have seen a lot, sometimes, or not at all. Boys before girls? Can't remember that. And I would have noticed... (!)
Sure, out of kavod hatorah. These were all learned people. I saw this is Switzerland, as well. Oh, and guests are served before family's kids- males, then females.
If my husband leaves the table for whatever reason before he takes food, I always ask if he minds me serving myself first. He always says no problem. But I always ask.
My husband was raised in Switzerland, he doesn't relate. For France or Switzerland. I don't relate for France.
He said he saw sometimes by age, as I said.
Guests before family, of course! That's common, and polite. But we davka learn to serve female guests first.
Freidasima, you now have testimonies on old times in Italy, Greece, Netherlands, Poland... not enough? I stand by what I said, though I can ask other older people if you want. What you depict is foreign to us, period. You will not convince me
Some of these things I have seen a lot, sometimes, or not at all. Boys before girls? Can't remember that. And I would have noticed... (!)
Sure, out of kavod hatorah. These were all learned people. I saw this is Switzerland, as well. Oh, and guests are served before family's kids- males, then females.
If my husband leaves the table for whatever reason before he takes food, I always ask if he minds me serving myself first. He always says no problem. But I always ask.
My husband was raised in Switzerland, he doesn't relate. For France or Switzerland. I don't relate for France.
He said he saw sometimes by age, as I said.
Guests before family, of course! That's common, and polite. But we davka learn to serve female guests first.
Funny, this family in particular, from Geneva, is one your husband knows. Maybe he never ate in their home. And maybe they're the only ones in Geneva who do it.
Initials?
Or maybe it happens to fit the age ranking? or they do not do it always/beshitta and it just happened that way? I will definitely ask him if you tell me who lol
HR we were talking halochically who to save first, not practically.
That is halacha. First come first saved.
I learned it out.
Where did you learn this?
I also learned for saving lives a man is first, because he is obligated in more mitzvos. For redeeming from captivity, giving money for clothing, a woman is first. That assumes other things being equal and that you have the medical knowledge etc to decide.
You don't pass a woman to save the man. Other things being equal, meaning you can reach both at the exact same time, both have equal likelihood of being saved etc. etc. etc.
I strongly believe in a parent-child hierarchy. Just not in a father-wife-child hierarchy.
Ditto. At least no father-wife hierarchy expressed in every day life except than referring to dad as authority, but nothing to show my being subservient (BH!).
Quote:
Again, the halacha .....I will let others answer.
Halacha as is applied, is very different from what FS needs to do, by many rabbanim. In my and dh's experience.
Quote:
I think both parents should be served first. Kibbud av veaim is written in my chumash.
If there is a mamosh a shortage of food and you are worried the kids will go to bed hungry I hope the father too will give up his portion for his kids. not just the mother.
All that. If anything, even animals know that the male "has to" give some of his food to the young AND the female.
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
Freidasima, I've been reading your posts with great interest and would appreciate if you could answer this question: given that the torah says "ish imo v'aviv tira'u", putting the mother first, how do you express that/ carry that out in your house?
HR please show me a source for first come first serve, I learned differently.
Have you ever been to a simcha in a cheap hall where they had serving spoons or forks in the salatim?? I have never seen them anywhere. Chumus, techina, tabouleh, beet salad, coleslaw, pickles, olives, etc. never served with any utentil any time at any simcha I have ever attended.
I have also even seen big platters of fried potatoes served without utentils. The only thing that gets utensils, usually, is the big bowl of rice.
Remember I'm talking inexpensive places. But even at really decent wedding halls I have seen salatim without serving utensils.
Table I'm really surprised. I have never seen a religious north african family of my generation where the children (my age) took food before their parents or grandparents. Also never saw a frum European family of my generation like that either, only the frei and even with them it depends.
I never said the kids took food first. I said they did not stand up for their parents/grandparents.
I don't know what wedding halls you frequent, but most I go to have serving utensils. Most, not all - I have seen places without, and it's annoying. But all the homes I go to in Israel (Israeli homes, not anglo) - they all have serving utensils for every dish. Often it's a flimsy plastic spoon for the salatim, but it's there.
The poor girl who gets served during dating, and suddenly after the chupa she is expected to always serve him... is she even told or does she learn the hard way?
I know more frum families where the husband is old fashioned and serves the wife, than the opposite. In most, no one serves always the other as a rule.
I would serve my husband first if I served everyone, but it's not a "thing" for him if I serve or not. It's also not a thing for him if I make the bed, he makes it, the cleaning lady makes it... he doesn't care for all these things.
I have seen serving the kids before yourself but I don't find it practical. We teach everyone must be served before eating so they would have to wait more, and kavod wise it makes more sense for the parents to be served first.
I generally see kids served by age. I can imagine boys came before girls once upon a time LOL but today, to go out of your way to serve that way? Nah. Not in Europe at least, that I can see.
Ruchel, my experience in France has been: females bring food to the table. Father is either served or serves himself. Next mother is either served or serves herself. If she is away from the table, kids put food on her plate. Then boys take food, then girls. Not saying every family does this, but it has been my personal French experience. I have seen this in many homes in Israel and the US as well. All happy, well adjusted families.
I have never, ever seen this in Israel. Ever. What kind of family did you see it in? And in 'many' homes? Frankly, I"m shocked.
I can understand serving children by age - but by gender? I wouldn't take my kids to eat at a family like that.
I never said the kids took food first. I said they did not stand up for their parents/grandparents.
I don't know what wedding halls you frequent, but most I go to have serving utensils. Most, not all - I have seen places without, and it's annoying. But all the homes I go to in Israel (Israeli homes, not anglo) - they all have serving utensils for every dish. Often it's a flimsy plastic spoon for the salatim, but it's there.
Yeah, that's about it.
And I don't find a problem with the food being served around and passed from hand to hand starting at different ends of the table. That way everyone gets quicker.
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
Freidasima, I've been reading your posts with great interest and would appreciate if you could answer this question: given that the torah says "ish imo v'aviv tira'u", putting the mother first, how do you express that/ carry that out in your house?
HR please show me a source for first come first serve, I learned differently.
Have you ever been to a simcha in a cheap hall where they had serving spoons or forks in the salatim?? I have never seen them anywhere. Chumus, techina, tabouleh, beet salad, coleslaw, pickles, olives, etc. never served with any utentil any time at any simcha I have ever attended.
I have also even seen big platters of fried potatoes served without utentils. The only thing that gets utensils, usually, is the big bowl of rice.
Remember I'm talking inexpensive places. But even at really decent wedding halls I have seen salatim without serving utensils.
Table I'm really surprised. I have never seen a religious north african family of my generation where the children (my age) took food before their parents or grandparents. Also never saw a frum European family of my generation like that either, only the frei and even with them it depends.
I never said the kids took food first. I said they did not stand up for their parents/grandparents.
That.
Let's not make it an assimilation or "roots-less American" thing. We can find sources for everything. Rabbanim, when asked a shaila or when teaching, do not quite obligate you on everything with a source - it wouldn't even be possible as it is sometimes contradictory!
There are people, who didn't grow up with all this, didn't see it around among older or frummer people, and apparently neither did their own grandparents.
Like me. Not among my rabbinical Sefardi relatives, not among my chassidic relatives, not among my ultra conservative Yekke (in law) relatives.
I guess for me it would be less foreign or upsetting to shave my hair under my wig as at least THIS I have heard of in my family so I could find comfort in the tradition. I know some posters have a strong adverse reaction to shaving so maybe it gives an idea of how I feel towards all this.
And dh doesn't oppose hair shaving (he told me while we were dating that if I wished to take on this minhag of my family I could 100%), but he does oppose the wife having this type of relationship to the husband. So yeah... maybe we can say I don't do all this so as to obey him
HR, I would also have the hardest time explain my children why we serve the girls first, if we had to. If it was another family I would say "another minhag" and hope it goes...
The poor girl who gets served during dating, and suddenly after the chupa she is expected to always serve him... is she even told or does she learn the hard way?
I know more frum families where the husband is old fashioned and serves the wife, than the opposite. In most, no one serves always the other as a rule.
I would serve my husband first if I served everyone, but it's not a "thing" for him if I serve or not. It's also not a thing for him if I make the bed, he makes it, the cleaning lady makes it... he doesn't care for all these things.
I have seen serving the kids before yourself but I don't find it practical. We teach everyone must be served before eating so they would have to wait more, and kavod wise it makes more sense for the parents to be served first.
I generally see kids served by age. I can imagine boys came before girls once upon a time LOL but today, to go out of your way to serve that way? Nah. Not in Europe at least, that I can see.
Ruchel, my experience in France has been: females bring food to the table. Father is either served or serves himself. Next mother is either served or serves herself. If she is away from the table, kids put food on her plate. Then boys take food, then girls. Not saying every family does this, but it has been my personal French experience. I have seen this in many homes in Israel and the US as well. All happy, well adjusted families.
I have never, ever seen this in Israel. Ever. What kind of family did you see it in? And in 'many' homes? Frankly, I"m shocked.
I can understand serving children by age - but by gender? I wouldn't take my kids to eat at a family like that.
What kind of families? Those in which the boys spend their days learning Torah in yeshiva. I don't mean young children, I mean children who are old enough to be treated with kavod due to kavod hatorah. I mentioned that already. What do you have against kavod hatorah? As a frum Jew, I'm happy to have my children experience kavod hatorah.
