in my house we serve platters. No it is not wasteful. Not everyone eats a full peice of chicken, or even any chicken, and some people don't eat carbs, others don't eat salad. What is left on the serving platter gets put back in the fridge. What is left on plates gets thrown out. Maybe this explains why our israeli guest on friday night threw out a serving platter full of potatoes after the meal?
I think both parents should be served first. Kibbud av veaim is written in my chumash.
If there is a mamosh a shortage of food and you are worried the kids will go to bed hungry I hope the father too will give up his portion for his kids. not just the mother.
In general, if there is not enough of one food cut the food up into smaller portions.
In case any of you don't understand British humor, let me just say that that my last post was fictional except for the part about being in a funny mood and the rolling laughter.
EVEN!!! It's shavua she'chal bo...how can you jest like that!
Imaonwheels I agree fully about plating things people don't like. Usually in poor or frugal famiiles the meat or chicken or fish is plated because that't the expensive item that is doled out one piece per person. I know families who when cooking meat would slice it thin and then count out numbers of portions and put one strip per person in the pot to heat up and no more. I coming from America, used to think that was...well let's say "a bit out of sight" but having lived here long enough today I can understand it better.
Table, what you describe is adult authority, but not derekh eretz in my book or not kibbud horim. Where is the special actions (other than not sitting in mommy and daddy's shabbos chairs) that are daily kibbud horim.
In your and your hsuband's parental homes did this also go on? Not standing up for parents and especially for father, not serving husband/ daddy first? etc? Because a lot may come from the fact that some americanized parents, meaning born in America in the 40s 50s 60s to Either American parents themselves didn' have this tradition as so many came to america as young people leaving parents behind in Europe so these people's kids didn't see their parents do it, simply because they had no grandparents etc. And their parents were not makpid for whatever reason, usually saying that "this is a new country we don't keep to what we did in Europe" kind of stuff..
I'm just trying to understand the transition because what I describe was considered very normal and average behavior anywhere in Pre WWII europe and also in north africa and middle eastern jewish communities.
Yes Table, exactly. Thanks Shal you said what I meant.
So how exactly is derekh eretz and kibbud av or kibbud zekenim expressed in your house?
You say that you don't serve the adults first.
You say that kids aren't taught to give their father first and other adults first and then ask if anyone who hasn't taken wants and only then to take for themselves.
You say that kids aren't taught not to sit in their father's chair unless given express permission to do so.
So how exactly are these things expressed tangibly in your home?
Halochic worth is measured, unfortunately, by how much one is worth if sold as a slave in the market. Literally. Which is also how compensation for someone who has accidently taken off someone's limb or blinded them or maimed them is also measured.
Another measure of worth is who is saved first in a disaster. Men first as they have a chiyuv for limud torah. At least that's the halochic answer. Talmidei chachomim before stam hedyot. There is a question about what about a learned woman who is drowning next to an am ha'aretz. There is a machlokes about it torah wise but not in terms of who is worth more in the shuk.
We may not like it, but that's what chazal determined.
As for serving - of course the kids are taught manners, and not to jump on any bowl served. But no, they don't offer every adult before eating themselves. Also, honestly, small kids are usually served first in many households I've been to, so they'll quiet down and busy themselves with the food. Shocking, hey.
Moreover, if there is a last piece of cake or chicken we give it to the kids - not the adults.
How is parental authority shown in our home? Well, first, we do actually sit at the head of the table. We have two heads, so I"m at one end, dh at the other. The kids are not allowed to sit there during meals. (However, during the week, we usually eat at the kitchen table - so yes, a kid can sit at the dining table in any chair they want. We only consider them 'our' chairs at formal meals).
Authority is expressed in other ways. They don't call us by our first names. They have to ask permission to do many things. Etc. Just not in the food arena.
I strongly believe in a parent-child hierarchy. Just not in a father-wife-child hierarchy.
Again, the halacha .....I will let others answer. Better I not unleash my opinion on these issues.
Oy vey...yes exactly Table. This is what happens in our house. Platters, because everyone has certian dislike and likes. My dh doesn't like eggs, should I force it on him or keep it off everyone else's plate? How absurd! The food goes out. If we are low on something I'll tell people take carefully...ze hu. Really it isn't lack of kavod. Just sense. I serve, because as I said my dh clears.
As far as saving people's lives...the first person one comes to comes first...only if two people are in the exact same position of need, do the other things come into effect.
in my house we serve platters. No it is not wasteful. Not everyone eats a full peice of chicken, or even any chicken, and some people don't eat carbs, others don't eat salad. What is left on the serving platter gets put back in the fridge. What is left on plates gets thrown out. Maybe this explains why our israeli guest on friday night threw out a serving platter full of potatoes after the meal?
I think both parents should be served first. Kibbud av veaim is written in my chumash.
If there is a mamosh a shortage of food and you are worried the kids will go to bed hungry I hope the father too will give up his portion for his kids. not just the mother.
In general, if there is not enough of one food cut the food up into smaller portions.
Table, what you describe is adult authority, but not derekh eretz in my book or not kibbud horim. Where is the special actions (other than not sitting in mommy and daddy's shabbos chairs) that are daily kibbud horim.
In your and your hsuband's parental homes did this also go on? Not standing up for parents and especially for father, not serving husband/ daddy first? etc? Because a lot may come from the fact that some americanized parents, meaning born in America in the 40s 50s 60s to Either American parents themselves didn' have this tradition as so many came to america as young people leaving parents behind in Europe so these people's kids didn't see their parents do it, simply because they had no grandparents etc. And their parents were not makpid for whatever reason, usually saying that "this is a new country we don't keep to what we did in Europe" kind of stuff..
I'm just trying to understand the transition because what I describe was considered very normal and average behavior anywhere in Pre WWII europe and also in north africa and middle eastern jewish communities.
My parents, zichronam livracha, were as far from Americanized or anglo or western as you can imagine. I don't want to get into where they are from on this thread (open to all).....but this custom of getting up for parents did not exist in our home nor in their parents (my grandparents' home). My mother did serve my father first, though.
I know quite a few north african dati Jews and never have I seen it there either.
EVEN!!! It's shavua she'chal bo...how can you jest like that!
First, it's my way of dealing with sleep deprivation and trying to wake myself up so that when I go back to my piece of work, I might be inspired as to how to tackle it. After all, the reason I came back to the thread was because I had concentration difficulty, as usual.
Second, it's my way of assimilating what I am picking up from the thread.
Third, I think that jokes that highlight sheker are at least as OK as living a life based on sheker, until 9 Av itself, just like Torah study with the simcha that comes from it, are muttar until 9 Av.
HR we were talking halochically who to save first, not practically.
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
As for plating food, I gather that there is always an abundance of meat and chicken and fish in your houses including when you have guests so it's no problem to put down a platter and end up with the guest taking four pieces of meat on his plate from the platter and then the other seven people at the table all have to make do with ...the four remaining pieces of meat...well it's not like that in many homes you know...the only thing that there is always enough to go around are the real inexpensive sides like rice or potatoes or pasta.
Raisin Israelis often don't have serving utensils. It's one of my pet peeves when I go to a chasunah and a platter is put down on the table or worse, when salads are on the table there isn't a utensil in sight. And your average israeli is not averse to taking with his fork, and for second even when that fork has gone into his mouth over and over and now it's being stuck into the humus or the tabouleh that everyone is supposed to take from...could be that your guest thought that if she is used to everyone sticking their forks into the potatoes you wouldn't want them re-used, although I am sure you use serving utensils maybe that's just what she was used to. Who knows.
HR we were talking halochically who to save first, not practically.
That is halacha. First come first saved.
I learned it out.
Quote:
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
You realize av comes before in one after in another pasuk.
Quote:
As for plating food, I gather that there is always an abundance of meat and chicken and fish in your houses including when you have guests so it's no problem to put down a platter and end up with the guest taking four pieces of meat on his plate from the platter and then the other seven people at the table all have to make do with ...the four remaining pieces of meat...well it's not like that in many homes you know...the only thing that there is always enough to go around are the real inexpensive sides like rice or potatoes or pasta.
Um, we have more polite guests? Often if we are low on something I'll announce; that's it for the chicken...or whatever. Or "there's more in the kitchen". But usually we aren't getting a whole piece of chicken at our table. Sorry, we are dead broke. So we have chicken stew or something similar.
Very rarely has anyone been rude enough to plunk a huge amount on their plate and not leave for others...usually a guy.
Quote:
Raisin Israelis often don't have serving utensils. It's one of my pet peeves when I go to a chasunah and a platter is put down on the table or worse, when salads are on the table there isn't a utensil in sight. And your average israeli is not averse to taking with his fork, and for second even when that fork has gone into his mouth over and over and now it's being stuck into the humus or the tabouleh that everyone is supposed to take from...could be that your guest thought that if she is used to everyone sticking their forks into the potatoes you wouldn't want them re-used, although I am sure you use serving utensils maybe that's just what she was used to. Who knows.
Where have you been eating? We have serving utensils at most simchot that I've been to, and at most tables where I've been to.
HR please show me a source for first come first serve, I learned differently.
Have you ever been to a simcha in a cheap hall where they had serving spoons or forks in the salatim?? I have never seen them anywhere. Chumus, techina, tabouleh, beet salad, coleslaw, pickles, olives, etc. never served with any utentil any time at any simcha I have ever attended.
I have also even seen big platters of fried potatoes served without utentils. The only thing that gets utensils, usually, is the big bowl of rice.
Remember I'm talking inexpensive places. But even at really decent wedding halls I have seen salatim without serving utensils.
Table I'm really surprised. I have never seen a religious north african family of my generation where the children (my age) took food before their parents or grandparents. Also never saw a frum European family of my generation like that either, only the frei and even with them it depends.
There is no posuk to honor your parents where the mother is before the father.
The posuk is to FEAR your mother before your father "ish imo ve'aviv tirau" but Kabed, is father first. Chazal say it's becuase naturally you are around your mother more as she is home more and therefore you fear her less and that's why she is put first in that posuk so that you go out of your way to fear her as it is not natural to fear your mother in most households but much more to fear your father.
HR please show me a source for first come first serve, I learned differently.
Have you ever been to a simcha in a cheap hall where they had serving spoons or forks in the salatim?? I have never seen them anywhere. Chumus, techina, tabouleh, beet salad, coleslaw, pickles, olives, etc. never served with any utentil any time at any simcha I have ever attended.
I have also even seen big platters of fried potatoes served without utentils. The only thing that gets utensils, usually, is the big bowl of rice.
Remember I'm talking inexpensive places. But even at really decent wedding halls I have seen salatim without serving utensils.
Table I'm really surprised. I have never seen a religious north african family of my generation where the children (my age) took food before their parents or grandparents. Also never saw a frum European family of my generation like that either, only the frei and even with them it depends.
There is no posuk to honor your parents where the mother is before the father.
The posuk is to FEAR your mother before your father "ish imo ve'aviv tirau" but Kabed, is father first. Chazal say it's becuase naturally you are around your mother more as she is home more and therefore you fear her less and that's why she is put first in that posuk so that you go out of your way to fear her as it is not natural to fear your mother in most households but much more to fear your father.
Honor your father and mother.
Fear your mother and father.
You are more likely to honor your mother than your father and as both are required to be honored it states in in reverse.
You are more likely to fear your father than your mother, so it states it in reverse.
No HR, that isn't correct as I learned it.
Honoring and fearing are two different mitzvot and are performed differently. What is your source for it being all one same mitzva performed in exactly the same way?
No HR, that isn't correct as I learned it.
Honoring and fearing are two different mitzvot and are performed differently. What is your source for it being all one same mitzva performed in exactly the same way?
That's how I learned it. That's how my husband learned it.
Where's your source?
I learned it as parallel.
Yes there are different aspects, but it is the same thing. Respecting mom and dad.
What is meant by fear and what is meant by
honor? Fear [is expressed by] not standing in his
place, not sitting in his place, not contradicting
his words, nor offering an opinion that outweighs
his
No HR, that isn't correct as I learned it.
Honoring and fearing are two different mitzvot and are performed differently. What is your source for it being all one same mitzva performed in exactly the same way?
That's how I learned it. That's how my husband learned it.
Where's your source?
I learned it as parallel.
Yes there are different aspects, but it is the same thing. Respecting mom and dad.
Kavod and yirah are two completely different things, each with different requirements. Just as the mitzva of yirah has specific requirements when talking about fearing G-d. You will not find any source stating that kavod and yirah are the same. When it comes to kibud horim, both are required toward parents.
Between spouses, there is a differentiation. Both are required to honor the other. However, there is only fear on the wifes side, toward her husband. There is no mention of yirah of a husband toward his wife. This has specific practical requirements as well. See the Rambam and commentary for more details.
HR we were talking halochically who to save first, not practically.
That is halacha. First come first saved.
I learned it out.
Where did you learn this?
I also learned for saving lives a man is first, because he is obligated in more mitzvos. For redeeming from captivity, giving money for clothing, a woman is first. That assumes other things being equal and that you have the medical knowledge etc to decide.
What is meant by fear and what is meant by
honor? Fear [is expressed by] not standing in his
place, not sitting in his place, not contradicting
his words, nor offering an opinion that outweighs
his
Maybe it is worse to sit in mom's chair.
No, because the wife has a chiyuv to honour her husband too.
Koved is to give food and drink, dress them, take them where they need to go etc.
A married woman is only obligated in morah (fear) and not koved of her parents, if it conflicts with the needs of her family.
The poor girl who gets served during dating, and suddenly after the chupa she is expected to always serve him... is she even told or does she learn the hard way?
I know more frum families where the husband is old fashioned and serves the wife, than the opposite. In most, no one serves always the other as a rule.
I would serve my husband first if I served everyone, but it's not a "thing" for him if I serve or not. It's also not a thing for him if I make the bed, he makes it, the cleaning lady makes it... he doesn't care for all these things.
I have seen serving the kids before yourself but I don't find it practical. We teach everyone must be served before eating so they would have to wait more, and kavod wise it makes more sense for the parents to be served first.
I generally see kids served by age. I can imagine boys came before girls once upon a time LOL but today, to go out of your way to serve that way? Nah. Not in Europe at least, that I can see.
