Which is why I said she is not a slave but that the marriage is a kinyan.
It is NOT darko shel olam for a husband to serve his wife if she is not ill or pregnant or special circumstances. Therefore it is customary that one acts according to "darko shel olam".
When I cook, which is normally, I serve. Soup I generally serve out; that is place it in people's bowls and give it to them...in which case I get last. If chicken or something I often begin the food at my end of the table, and pass it around each end. I take the last plate of whatever it is first and then pass that.
If my husband serves I get served first. Why isn't it "darko shel olam" for my husband to serve? I see nothing wrong with it.
Which is why I said she is not a slave but that the marriage is a kinyan.
It is NOT darko shel olam for a husband to serve his wife if she is not ill or pregnant or special circumstances. Therefore it is customary that one acts according to "darko shel olam".
When I cook, which is normally, I serve. Soup I generally serve out; that is place it in people's bowls and give it to them...in which case I get last. If chicken or something I often begin the food at my end of the table, and pass it around each end. I take the last plate of whatever it is first and then pass that.
If my husband serves I get served first. Why isn't it "darko shel olam" for my husband to serve? I see nothing wrong with it.
At our house, most of the food is served 'sitting buffet' style. In other words, we (both dh and I) place it directly on the table in serving platters. The adults/older teens serve themselves. Including dh and myself. I might ask him whether he tried the new chicken dish, or he might pass me the salad and tell me it's really good this Shabbat, I should have some. That's as close as we get to 'serving'. Except for soup - which usually I serve (so I get last, after everyone, including my kids. Should I feel inferior?)
The younger kids are served by whoever is sitting next to them. If they are at my end, I serve them, if they're at dh's end, he serves them. Again, usually we fill up their plates before we fill up our own.
Which is why I said she is not a slave but that the marriage is a kinyan.
It is NOT darko shel olam for a husband to serve his wife if she is not ill or pregnant or special circumstances. Therefore it is customary that one acts according to "darko shel olam".
When I cook, which is normally, I serve. Soup I generally serve out; that is place it in people's bowls and give it to them...in which case I get last. If chicken or something I often begin the food at my end of the table, and pass it around each end. I take the last plate of whatever it is first and then pass that.
If my husband serves I get served first. Why isn't it "darko shel olam" for my husband to serve? I see nothing wrong with it.
At our house, most of the food is served 'sitting buffet' style. In other words, we (both dh and I) place it directly on the table in serving platters. The adults/older teens serve themselves. Including dh and myself. I might ask him whether he tried the new chicken dish, or he might pass me the salad and tell me it's really good this Shabbat, I should have some. That's as close as we get to 'serving'. Except for soup - which usually I serve (so I get last, after everyone, including my kids. Should I feel inferior?)
The younger kids are served by whoever is sitting next to them. If they are at my end, I serve them, if they're at dh's end, he serves them. Again, usually we fill up their plates before we fill up our own.
Basically the same here, except I bring the food out, dh clears the table.
Saw, there is absolutely no halochic problem with a woman giving a man a ring or any other present under the chuppah. It is NOT a kinyan and it has to be said out loud that it is a present and NOT a kinyan and it can't be done at any time during the halochic part of a service. The rabbonim who say you can't are saying that men wearing wedding rings are following a non jewish custom and they shouldn't, which is how I was brought up BTW unlike my husband who is third generation american and in his family they did wear... Ask your rov directly about it if you want. Ask him whether a bride is permitted to give her groom a present, including a ring, after the kesuba is read and after the sheva brochos but before stepping on the glass, if it is announced that "the kallah has bought a present for her chossen as a token of her love and wants to present it to him, this is a present and not a kinyan or anything else", whether THAT is halochically posul and what their asmachta (reasoning and source) is.
For those of you who have husbands who cook etc. that's fine and dandy but are you also saying that this is the NORM (meaning that more than 50% of the total number of households of married couples or famlilies in the world act like that?) Maybe it is changing in parts of the industrialized western world but to say it is the norm yet...that sounds a bit farfetched.
As for a mother serving the children first, that is customary but because it is also customary that mothers take last to make sure that there is enough for the children. That's where it comes from. If the children are tiny and you may need two parents to feed them, again, children may get first as neither parent will be eating first and foremost but watching their children (let's say ages 1.5, 3, 5) eat and making time for themselves secondary.
But I'm talking about the majority of the world where there is a table let's say with a father, mother and children who are able to eat by themselves. Will the mother serve herself before she serves her husband??? Really??? I've got to say that I haven't seen this. Ever. Maybe I live in a different world or on a different planet. But certain in frum homes? Never.
Saw, there is absolutely no halochic problem with a woman giving a man a ring or any other present under the chuppah. It is NOT a kinyan and it has to be said out loud that it is a present and NOT a kinyan and it can't be done at any time during the halochic part of a service. The rabbonim who say you can't are saying that men wearing wedding rings are following a non jewish custom and they shouldn't, which is how I was brought up BTW unlike my husband who is third generation american and in his family they did wear... Ask your rov directly about it if you want. Ask him whether a bride is permitted to give her groom a present, including a ring, after the kesuba is read and after the sheva brochos but before stepping on the glass, if it is announced that "the kallah has bought a present for her chossen as a token of her love and wants to present it to him, this is a present and not a kinyan or anything else", whether THAT is halochically posul and what their asmachta (reasoning and source) is.
For those of you who have husbands who cook etc. that's fine and dandy but are you also saying that this is the NORM (meaning that more than 50% of the total number of households of married couples or famlilies in the world act like that?) Maybe it is changing in parts of the industrialized western world but to say it is the norm yet...that sounds a bit farfetched.
As for a mother serving the children first, that is customary but because it is also customary that mothers take last to make sure that there is enough for the children. That's where it comes from. If the children are tiny and you may need two parents to feed them, again, children may get first as neither parent will be eating first and foremost but watching their children (let's say ages 1.5, 3, 5) eat and making time for themselves secondary.
But I'm talking about the majority of the world where there is a table let's say with a father, mother and children who are able to eat by themselves. Will the mother serve herself before she serves her husband??? Really??? I've got to say that I haven't seen this. Ever. Maybe I live in a different world or on a different planet. But certain in frum homes? Never.
We serve family style so it isn't a matter of "serving." Plates of food are on the table, whoever is near takes and passes it on.
If I SERVE then I serve my dh first unless the children are so young they need to be, or some other issues is in existence.
But I only serve the soup. The rest of the food is on the table and of course I take some things before my dh, why wouldn't I? I have to pass all the food to his side first? How silly!
Saw, there is absolutely no halochic problem with a woman giving a man a ring or any other present under the chuppah. It is NOT a kinyan and it has to be said out loud that it is a present and NOT a kinyan and it can't be done at any time during the halochic part of a service. The rabbonim who say you can't are saying that men wearing wedding rings are following a non jewish custom and they shouldn't, which is how I was brought up BTW unlike my husband who is third generation american and in his family they did wear... Ask your rov directly about it if you want. Ask him whether a bride is permitted to give her groom a present, including a ring, after the kesuba is read and after the sheva brochos but before stepping on the glass, if it is announced that "the kallah has bought a present for her chossen as a token of her love and wants to present it to him, this is a present and not a kinyan or anything else", whether THAT is halochically posul and what their asmachta (reasoning and source) is.
For those of you who have husbands who cook etc. that's fine and dandy but are you also saying that this is the NORM (meaning that more than 50% of the total number of households of married couples or famlilies in the world act like that?) Maybe it is changing in parts of the industrialized western world but to say it is the norm yet...that sounds a bit farfetched.
As for a mother serving the children first, that is customary but because it is also customary that mothers take last to make sure that there is enough for the children. That's where it comes from. If the children are tiny and you may need two parents to feed them, again, children may get first as neither parent will be eating first and foremost but watching their children (let's say ages 1.5, 3, 5) eat and making time for themselves secondary.
But I'm talking about the majority of the world where there is a table let's say with a father, mother and children who are able to eat by themselves. Will the mother serve herself before she serves her husband??? Really??? I've got to say that I haven't seen this. Ever. Maybe I live in a different world or on a different planet. But certain in frum homes? Never.
We serve family style so it isn't a matter of "serving." Plates of food are on the table, whoever is near takes and passes it on.
If I SERVE then I serve my dh first unless the children are so young they need to be, or some other issues is in existence.
But I only serve the soup. The rest of the food is on the table and of course I take some things before my dh, why wouldn't I? I have to pass all the food to his side first? How silly!
Same. If the specific platter is next to me, I will help myself first, since I don't 'serve' dh; we all serve ourselves.
Now if it is something that is served, like soup, or certain desert dishes, then of course I serve dh and the kids first, me last. But that is just polite, and if dh or anyone else (an older child) is doing the serving, they do the exact same thing.
For those of you who have husbands who cook etc. that's fine and dandy but are you also saying that this is the NORM (meaning that more than 50% of the total number of households of married couples or famlilies in the world act like that?) Maybe it is changing in parts of the industrialized western world but to say it is the norm yet...that sounds a bit farfetched.
I never said it was the norm - I just said it's common enough that I certainly don't even think twice when a husband serves me rather than a wife.
In any case, it's irrelevant whether the wife or husband serves - the fact that women in general take this task upon themselves doesn't make them subservient or lower down on the hierarchy, just like the fact that many men traditionally take out the trash doesnt' make them a lower caste.
freidasima wrote:
As for a mother serving the children first, that is customary but because it is also customary that mothers take last to make sure that there is enough for the children. That's where it comes from. If the children are tiny and you may need two parents to feed them, again, children may get first as neither parent will be eating first and foremost but watching their children (let's say ages 1.5, 3, 5) eat and making time for themselves secondary.
But I'm talking about the majority of the world where there is a table let's say with a father, mother and children who are able to eat by themselves. Will the mother serve herself before she serves her husband??? Really??? I've got to say that I haven't seen this. Ever. Maybe I live in a different world or on a different planet. But certain in frum homes? Never.
In most homes I've been to, the food isn't served, it's all set on platters in the middle of the table. Certainly in most Israeli homes I"ve been to. And like Hinda said, sometimes the wife does serve herself from a certain platter first, if it's closest to her, since the whole set-up is self-serve. Sometimes, if the platters are heavy, people pass their plates around the table and whoever is closest to a certain dish fills it up for whoever requested.
And I repeat - when formal serving is present, it's just basic manners for whoever is serving to serve him or herself last. It has nothing to do with frum or not frum.
Wow putting platters of food on the table shows how well to do people are! Because when you are frugal you plate the food to make sure you have enough for each eater and that's it. That's how Israelis I know live and lived for years and not only Israelis. Frugal people.
Besides, if a platter is near a child, isn't he taught to offer it first to a father? Meaning we can b"h afford to not plate our food for frugality, but when I bring a bowl of something in from the kitchen I will first always give it to my husband to take and only then will it be passed around to anyone else at the table. He will often say "Freidasima take what you want first" but for derekh eretz I give it to him first. If it is put on the table for lack of space, then it gets handed to the father first unless there is a guest in which case the father usually tells the guest to take first. Males before females halochically which I know goes against western manners but sometimes halochic precedence whether we like it or not go against western manners. If the guests are very modern the husband will always make sure his wife takes first but the father of the house tells the male guest to take, that's the traditional order we were taught.
HOH doesn't mean Subservient! It means hierarchy and in this case halochic hierarchy.
Anyone disagree that in terms of absolute family terms the halochic hierarchy is first father then mother then sons and then daughters? I know, the sons first and only then daughters rankles sometimes, especially if the boys are much younger and the girls are much older and then it is rarely kept to. But certainly halochically that's the hierarchy and it DOESNT mean subservience but rather a pyramid of halochic worth in the family framework.
HOH doesn't mean Subservient! It means hierarchy and in this case halochic hierarchy.
Anyone disagree that in terms of absolute family terms the halochic hierarchy is first father then mother then sons and then daughters? I know, the sons first and only then daughters rankles sometimes, especially if the boys are much younger and the girls are much older and then it is rarely kept to. But certainly halochically that's the hierarchy and it DOESNT mean subservience but rather a pyramid of halochic worth in the family framework.
Oooh, halachic worth? Wanna explain what that means exactly?
Wow putting platters of food on the table shows how well to do people are! Because when you are frugal you plate the food to make sure you have enough for each eater and that's it. That's how Israelis I know live and lived for years and not only Israelis. Frugal people.
Besides, if a platter is near a child, isn't he taught to offer it first to a father? Meaning we can b"h afford to not plate our food for frugality, but when I bring a bowl of something in from the kitchen I will first always give it to my husband to take and only then will it be passed around to anyone else at the table. He will often say "Freidasima take what you want first" but for derekh eretz I give it to him first. If it is put on the table for lack of space, then it gets handed to the father first unless there is a guest in which case the father usually tells the guest to take first. Males before females halochically which I know goes against western manners but sometimes halochic precedence whether we like it or not go against western manners. If the guests are very modern the husband will always make sure his wife takes first but the father of the house tells the male guest to take, that's the traditional order we were taught.
HOH doesn't mean Subservient! It means hierarchy and in this case halochic hierarchy.
Anyone disagree that in terms of absolute family terms the halochic hierarchy is first father then mother then sons and then daughters? I know, the sons first and only then daughters rankles sometimes, especially if the boys are much younger and the girls are much older and then it is rarely kept to. But certainly halochically that's the hierarchy and it DOESNT mean subservience but rather a pyramid of halochic worth in the family framework.
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for dessert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Kibbud av va'em just isn't expressed for us in this manner. Sorry. No, my kids don't wait for their father to take first. If there is a bowl of grapes on the table, whoever is in the mood for grapes will take. I don't wait for dh to take either. I will exhort guests to take, make themselves at home, etc. Other than that, we don't have that kind of formality or hierarchy when it comes to food. Certainly not food that is placed at the center of the table for all to help themselves.
BTW, I know that we are not exceptions, been to many homes that operate the same way, including very dati homes. There are other ways to express or educate toward kibbud av va'em.
(A question: do you think kids should also wait till their mom takes from the bowl before helping themselves? Or do they just have to wait for the father to take?)
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Again, this has nothing to do with helping oneself to a bowl placed in the middle of the table. If I put fruit down, do kids have to wait till every single older person has taken? And if saba or savta hasn't taken, does said child have to ask them if they want, and only if they decline, help himself to an orange?
Yes Table, exactly. Thanks Shal you said what I meant.
So how exactly is derekh eretz and kibbud av or kibbud zekenim expressed in your house?
You say that you don't serve the adults first.
You say that kids aren't taught to give their father first and other adults first and then ask if anyone who hasn't taken wants and only then to take for themselves.
You say that kids aren't taught not to sit in their father's chair unless given express permission to do so.
So how exactly are these things expressed tangibly in your home?
Halochic worth is measured, unfortunately, by how much one is worth if sold as a slave in the market. Literally. Which is also how compensation for someone who has accidently taken off someone's limb or blinded them or maimed them is also measured.
Another measure of worth is who is saved first in a disaster. Men first as they have a chiyuv for limud torah. At least that's the halochic answer. Talmidei chachomim before stam hedyot. There is a question about what about a learned woman who is drowning next to an am ha'aretz. There is a machlokes about it torah wise but not in terms of who is worth more in the shuk.
We may not like it, but that's what chazal determined.
Yes Table, exactly. Thanks Shal you said what I meant.
So how exactly is derekh eretz and kibbud av or kibbud zekenim expressed in your house?
You say that you don't serve the adults first.
You say that kids aren't taught to give their father first and other adults first and then ask if anyone who hasn't taken wants and only then to take for themselves.
You say that kids aren't taught not to sit in their father's chair unless given express permission to do so.
So how exactly are these things expressed tangibly in your home?
Halochic worth is measured, unfortunately, by how much one is worth if sold as a slave in the market. Literally. Which is also how compensation for someone who has accidently taken off someone's limb or blinded them or maimed them is also measured.
Another measure of worth is who is saved first in a disaster. Men first as they have a chiyuv for limud torah. At least that's the halochic answer. Talmidei chachomim before stam hedyot. There is a question about what about a learned woman who is drowning next to an am ha'aretz. There is a machlokes about it torah wise but not in terms of who is worth more in the shuk.
We may not like it, but that's what chazal determined.
As for serving - of course the kids are taught manners, and not to jump on any bowl served. But no, they don't offer every adult before eating themselves. Also, honestly, small kids are usually served first in many households I've been to, so they'll quiet down and busy themselves with the food. Shocking, hey.
Moreover, if there is a last piece of cake or chicken we give it to the kids - not the adults.
How is parental authority shown in our home? Well, first, we do actually sit at the head of the table. We have two heads, so I"m at one end, dh at the other. The kids are not allowed to sit there during meals. (However, during the week, we usually eat at the kitchen table - so yes, a kid can sit at the dining table in any chair they want. We only consider them 'our' chairs at formal meals).
Authority is expressed in other ways. They don't call us by our first names. They have to ask permission to do many things. Etc. Just not in the food arena.
I strongly believe in a parent-child hierarchy. Just not in a father-wife-child hierarchy.
Again, the halacha .....I will let others answer. Better I not unleash my opinion on these issues.
I love this jumping in once a week so much better than being OCD.
We do not put on individual plates because I and my kids have suffered with what do we do when we get a spoonful of what we like (because the hostess thinks thats normal and a heaping serving spoon of what we hate. By us we don't want to put anyone in that position.
I put starters (salads, chummus, etc) if there are on the table when I set it. Also large serving bowls/platters. I put everything on dh's plate and give it to him. When my kids where small I served them in order oldest to youngest. Today after Abba takes his plate everyone else politely helps himself. My boys who are closest to me on the table will often ask me if they want me to put some of this on my plate before they take. Dh begins to eat when I sit down. If there is soup I bring the pot to the table and give 1st dh, then any married children and spouses then my teenagers. There are times we give the gc 1st because they are bored and hungry and are very restless, hitting, etc. We do this when Shabbos meal starts at 9pm so they can eat and join the littler babies in bed.
I usually cook whatever I want and eat it. When I have finished in the kitchen, my husband is allowed to come in and use whatever ingredients are left to cook something for himself. When he has cooked it, he shares it with the kids, who by this point, are "screaming blue murder" and if there is anything left after that, he could eat it theoretically, but in practice, it is usually time for mincha or maariv, so he runs out and leaves it. When he comes back home, I usually tell him "you left food out with no instructions so I let the flies get to it." Then he chooses between tossing it or reheating and tossing usually has to win. Then we start the whole process again.
