OK, FS, I got it. World peace. If so, I agree with you in general. Except about the boys' chinuch bit. I don't think decisions about chinuch should be split according to gender.
We also had a huge dilemma about one of our sons high school choices, and ultimately my opinion won out. And so far so good. I honestly don't think my dh is more well-equipped to make these choices than I am. Then again, my dh is not in chinuch, like yours is - and I am. So personal circumstances make a difference.
Table: You are right, in MO circles many people don't have a personal rav. It would make their life easier, though.
It is a big problem if they cannot agree on a posek for the house, at least for what they cannot compromise on or answer to themselves.
If they oppose going to advice to a rav, then yes they lose an opportunity of help. It is a choice.
Someone who suddenly changes, cannot expect the other to necessarily follow.
I would not send to a school finishing very late unless it was davka so they can have good chol and good kodesh. You can also use vacations, or Sunday, or a few hours a week - you're not going through the entire program, and will not do all the courses a school has (music, drawing, sports etc). MANY people do that. It is actually getting more and more common as people go more right wing and hence want a similar environment at school.
I would not marry someone very out of my values, either someone who REQUESTS internet and sports, or someone who sees them as treif. Because we would fight much before kids!
FS, I'm also very pro asking tons of questions lol
I agree a guy knows boy education better except exceptions.
Dealing on my own with the colour of an apartment we will both live in, what dh wears, where we go on vacation, how much he can see his relatives or friends, what we eat, who we invite or where we go, I would feel extremely controlling. Some of these things are 50/50, some not even so much my business. What he wears and how much he sees his family? if a man did that he would be called a taliban! lol
Deciding on my own how many kids and when, I think that's one of the few things he would never forgive. And I would understand it 100%. His kids too, and his mitsva only, so why would I exclude him from deciding? especially when I knew before marriage he is from an European family, who lost a lot to war and assimilation - not necessarily ending up with 10 kids but not limiting on purpose. I'm not talking of health problems that are no one's decision, btw.
Now, a guy who doesn't care what I do... I would really feel he doesn't care for the kids
Just like he couldn't watch me do chores and stay sitted with a sefer, I couldn't watch him hope every month when I know nothing is probably happening unless a small ness and it's my doing. Just cruel in my world, both.
Ruchel obviously one talks about children before one marrieds and one voices opinions. If my husband said "I came from a family of three and I never want more" and I wanted five I would ask him why and see whether I could gently convince him of what I wanted. Same the other way around. But my husband is definitely of the opinion that as the woman is caring for the kids and bears them and it's her health at sake, after fulfilling pru urvu to one's definition it's really up to the woman as each time she gets pregnant it is a potential life threatening situation for her. With me it certainly was.
As for what color the walls in the living room, we are facing that right now. Anyone reading the apholstery thread knows we re apholstered the living room chairs and finally got a sofa that has legs and the tush doesn't hit the ground when you sit! Sofa is cream, chairs light sand (dh's choice BTW, I wanted all cream, he said "Freidasima, that's what you get for shlepping me with you to choose fabric, I get to say my opinion you don't have to do it but I think that all cream will be bad with the grandchildren, this way you only cry when the sofa gets filthy not when EVERYTHING gets filthy! and he was right).
But now he suggested painting one wall in the dining area sand as we had a leak and the plaster is falling anyhow and it has to be fixed. But I don't really want sand. However that wall is going to be sand. Why? Because he is my husband, he asks for so little in life that if he says that he really wants sand, it's going to be sand.
Barbara, when you and your husband reach an impasse about something serious that has to be a family decision, not "are you going to wear socks" but something really serious like are you going to move to Z town, and you say X and he says Y, what happens? There is a good reason to move and a good reason not to move and you can't compromise meaning you have to move together as a family. What do you do then? Let's say all the reasons are subjective. it doesn't have to do with your job versus his job or something, totally subjective. Who wins out? Who usually defers?
As for what color the walls in the living room, we are facing that right now. Anyone reading the apholstery thread knows we re apholstered the living room chairs and finally got a sofa that has legs and the tush doesn't hit the ground when you sit!
Who wins out? Who usually defers?
Mazel tov on the decorating and enjoy. We've had sofas that one could halachically sit shiva on.
As to who wins out, there's the old joke about the man who says, in my home, I make all the major decisions, the wife makes all the minor ones. She decides on the food, decorating, schools, etc. I decide on world peace, the debt ceiling, etc.
Ruchel obviously one talks about children before one marrieds and one voices opinions. If my husband said "I came from a family of three and I never want more" and I wanted five I would ask him why and see whether I could gently convince him of what I wanted. Same the other way around. But my husband is definitely of the opinion that as the woman is caring for the kids and bears them and it's her health at sake, after fulfilling pru urvu to one's definition it's really up to the woman as each time she gets pregnant it is a potential life threatening situation for her. With me it certainly was.
As for what color the walls in the living room, we are facing that right now. Anyone reading the apholstery thread knows we re apholstered the living room chairs and finally got a sofa that has legs and the tush doesn't hit the ground when you sit! Sofa is cream, chairs light sand (dh's choice BTW, I wanted all cream, he said "Freidasima, that's what you get for shlepping me with you to choose fabric, I get to say my opinion you don't have to do it but I think that all cream will be bad with the grandchildren, this way you only cry when the sofa gets filthy not when EVERYTHING gets filthy! and he was right).
But now he suggested painting one wall in the dining area sand as we had a leak and the plaster is falling anyhow and it has to be fixed. But I don't really want sand. However that wall is going to be sand. Why? Because he is my husband, he asks for so little in life that if he says that he really wants sand, it's going to be sand.
Barbara, when you and your husband reach an impasse about something serious that has to be a family decision, not "are you going to wear socks" but something really serious like are you going to move to Z town, and you say X and he says Y, what happens? There is a good reason to move and a good reason not to move and you can't compromise meaning you have to move together as a family. What do you do then? Let's say all the reasons are subjective. it doesn't have to do with your job versus his job or something, totally subjective. Who wins out? Who usually defers?
We talk and discuss until we are each able to understand the other's position, and to compromise. Eg, we were at an impasse regarding a school decision. I listened to and understood DH's very legitimate points. I was then able to explain to him why I thought that his points were trumped by other points. We discussed ways that all of our issues could be accommodated. And, in the end, were able to reach a compromise that's probably better than what either one of us originally wanted.
I cannot imagine that we wouldn't have to reach an agreement on any really important issue, although each of us realizes that there are things that are more important to one than to the other, and are likely to yield on those issues. You mention moving. So, if tomorrow, your husband came to you and said "I've had it here, I have a great job offer in Lithuania, we're moving in 3 weeks," would you say "yes dear?" Or would you say "hold your horses. I have a practice here. Kids. Grandkids. And no desire to be in Lithuania."
as the woman is caring for the kids and bears them and it's her health at sake, after fulfilling pru urvu to one's definition it's really up to the woman as each time she gets pregnant it is a potential life threatening situation for her.
I agree with that. But it still doesn't mean it is ok to hide or not take into account.
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However that wall is going to be sand. Why? Because he is my husband, he asks for so little in life that if he says that he really wants sand, it's going to be sand.
So apparently it is not so set in stone who decides what?
Barbara there are issues that there is no "compromise " possible for. There is "giving in" but that's not compromise. So the question is, who gives in? And what if there is no question of "convincing"? The moving maybe is a bad example because it's possible to say "you move to lithuania and it will take me a year to wind up my practice but I will do it" and not move immediately. I'm trying to think of an example where there is no room for compromise. Here's one. Your husband's shita is that only a sheitl can be a kissui rosh (like lubavitch) while your shita is like Rav Ovadia, that a sheitl is forbidden as a kissui rosh.
So. What do you do? You can say that halochically a woman is required in such things to go by her husband's minhogim unless they decide as a couple that..."they will decide each case as a couple". But if they don't? Then she is required to wear a sheitl. Even Rav Ovadia will say that, albeit with some kind of sidecrack about ashkenazim, as is his way...a biting sense of humor he has in spades even at 90, Boruch Hashem.
And so...what does one do then according to you? And if the man is adamant and won't give in, because here there is no "compromise", only giving in...
Ruchel the whole idea of a woman being mufkad (in charge of) BC according to this shita is that she DOES hide it. Hide what she uses and when she uses it. Because the minute she doesn't she opens a pandora's box halochically. That's the issue.
As for the wall, no one said anything was set in stone, that was some posters incorrect "take" on a statement that the husband is the head of the household. The "head" can also defer to his wife, he can consult with her and a mensch will ALWAYS consult with his wife. If he isn't a mensch...don't marry him. Some men you can see that they are menschen in 20 seconds. My dh is like that. He said three sentences to me in a corridor when my co worker introduced us...and I knew that he was 1) cute 2) funny 3) smart 4) witty 5) deep 6) knowledgeable 7) good mannered 8) menschlich 9) my future husband!
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
I totally do not agree with this at all. I never felt like that was the way in my parents house at all and I dont find it to be the correct way at all. Nope, Sorry. I find that to be as if the husband is an actual baal of the wife and I get so turned off by that.
Sorry, I totally disagree with this.
Then how do you deal, shabbat, with the halochic imperative that a woman takes on her husbands minhogim when she gets married and they take precedence over her family minhogim? If he is sefaradi she can eat kitniyos, if he is ashkenazi and she sefaradi she has to STOP eating kitniyos. If he makes kiddush sitting down she has to sit. If he is Lubavitch she has to start boiling her sugar before Pesach etc.
The only minhogim that she is permitted to maintain are those she got from her mother that have to do with TH in terms of number of times she toivels, anything special having to do with bedikos etc. Otherwise even in terms of what mikva she uses, if she marries Lubavitch she has to start using bor al gabei bor and nothing else is kosher for her from then on.
That makes the husband the "head of the family" when it comes to religion, tradition and custom, that's for sure. How do you cope with that?
Pink thank you ! Actually the old sofa is down in the building's miklat. Chas vesholom if we need it during a war. I never thought that it was halochically ok for shiva...not that I was going to keep it around for that...it's bad enough I have a pile of shirts put aside for that purpose chas vesholom. Like to always be prepared and all that...I take organization to new heights.
I dont see how bc can be hidden for long (hide the pills? Abstain "randomly" for a week?) and how something so important can be hidden from the potential father. If a rabbi requires it, then fine, but I just dont see it.
I think it depends on the situation. Things like what school to send your kids to - I think is a decision you make together. Things like wearing socks, I would say if the husband says he wants you to - then you do.
My husband is the head of house - which means that if I don't know what to do - I ask him and what ever he says I do. for ex. I'm not sure when I want my girls to stop wearing short sleeves or I wasnt sure when to put them in skirts. so I ask my dh (happens to be - he didnt know either - so he asked our rav) but assuming he decided that at 4 they have to wear skirts, I would've switched them even if I thought at 3 or at 5... It also means that he can say in this house we are going to do x and we will all listen.
I think as a mother, we make all the small decisions by ourself. and im happy to give over the tough decisions to my husband as head of the household.
I guess where the difference is. I would be very upset if my husband made major/tough decisions without me. I am my husband's partner, in everything and that includes important decisions. There has not yet, BH, been any area where we have not come to an agreement or talked about important things. Wow, I can not imagine living like that.
OK, FS, I got it. World peace. If so, I agree with you in general. Except about the boys' chinuch bit. I don't think decisions about chinuch should be split according to gender.
We also had a huge dilemma about one of our sons high school choices, and ultimately my opinion won out. And so far so good. I honestly don't think my dh is more well-equipped to make these choices than I am. Then again, my dh is not in chinuch, like yours is - and I am. So personal circumstances make a difference.
This. I know that I know more about certain things than my husband and he knows more about some things than me. And it makes no amount of difference because we both want to have the decision and veto power, together. That is why we talk about things. He enlightens me about things I dont know and me to him.
Table: You are right, in MO circles many people don't have a personal rav. It would make their life easier, though.
It is a big problem if they cannot agree on a posek for the house, at least for what they cannot compromise on or answer to themselves.
If they oppose going to advice to a rav, then yes they lose an opportunity of help. It is a choice.
Ruchel, There is a whole big MO world out there of people who never ask rabbanim ANY questions other than specific ones having to do wit shabbat, kashrut and TH. I know that I am one such person. In my life I would never ask a rav, even if I would need help in a decision with my husband, about where to send a child to school. I would first talk to my parents maybe or my sister or a friend, people who know me intimately, not a rav, so for some of the population, this is a mute point really, about asking rabbanim. Just pointing out.
I think it depends on the situation. Things like what school to send your kids to - I think is a decision you make together. Things like wearing socks, I would say if the husband says he wants you to - then you do.
My husband is the head of house - which means that if I don't know what to do - I ask him and what ever he says I do. for ex. I'm not sure when I want my girls to stop wearing short sleeves or I wasnt sure when to put them in skirts. so I ask my dh (happens to be - he didnt know either - so he asked our rav) but assuming he decided that at 4 they have to wear skirts, I would've switched them even if I thought at 3 or at 5... It also means that he can say in this house we are going to do x and we will all listen.
I think as a mother, we make all the small decisions by ourself. and im happy to give over the tough decisions to my husband as head of the household.
That's because sof kol sof, ruchniyus is the man's domain, the domestic/gashmiyus decisions are the wives'. So inyanei chinuch/nanhagos are ultimately decided upon by the husband...
(This was a whole 'nother thread I participated in in the past; no need to rehash it unless we have run out of fuel here.)
Then how do you deal, shabbat, with the halochic imperative that a woman takes on her husbands minhogim when she gets married and they take precedence over her family minhogim? If he is sefaradi she can eat kitniyos, if he is ashkenazi and she sefaradi she has to STOP eating kitniyos. If he makes kiddush sitting down she has to sit. If he is Lubavitch she has to start boiling her sugar before Pesach etc.
The only minhogim that she is permitted to maintain are those she got from her mother that have to do with TH in terms of number of times she toivels, anything special having to do with bedikos etc. Otherwise even in terms of what mikva she uses, if she marries Lubavitch she has to start using bor al gabei bor and nothing else is kosher for her from then on.
That makes the husband the "head of the family" when it comes to religion, tradition and custom, that's for sure. How do you cope with that?
Those things do not make a husband the head of the household. That just makes the husband the one whos minhagim are being followed. In terms of many religious things we go according to both of our households in our house, but I am not even talking about minhagim. I am moreso talking about things like you mentioned big decisions or chinuchy things.
All I know is that some things my husband does not want and will not be the one to make the decisions. He told me long ago that we are a team and that everything, religious and not, is a joint effort. I echoed his sentiments exactly.
I never felt like that was the way in my parents household either. I remember that my parents talked and talked and talked. about everything. Nothing was left to my father to "have the final say". To me that is both barbaric and seems of yesteryear.
I think it depends on the situation. Things like what school to send your kids to - I think is a decision you make together. Things like wearing socks, I would say if the husband says he wants you to - then you do.
My husband is the head of house - which means that if I don't know what to do - I ask him and what ever he says I do. for ex. I'm not sure when I want my girls to stop wearing short sleeves or I wasnt sure when to put them in skirts. so I ask my dh (happens to be - he didnt know either - so he asked our rav) but assuming he decided that at 4 they have to wear skirts, I would've switched them even if I thought at 3 or at 5... It also means that he can say in this house we are going to do x and we will all listen.
I think as a mother, we make all the small decisions by ourself. and im happy to give over the tough decisions to my husband as head of the household.
That's because sof kol sof, ruchniyus is the man's domain, the domestic/gashmiyus decisions are the wives'. So inyanei chinuch/nanhagos are ultimately decided upon by the husband...
(This was a whole 'nother thread I participated in in the past; no need to rehash it unless we have run out of fuel here.)
Who says this and why did I never learn such a thing? Really. The first time I ever heard that was on this site.
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