The camp thread is making me ill. Seriously.

↑ MommyZ ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 7:40 am

Pickle Lady wrote:

Everyone has their lot in life. Its unbelievable that people can sit here a say "well if I can do it then you can".

Nobody gives the WHOLE STORY..... NOBODY.

The woman who says that she takes care of her kids everyday and does it alone. Then you find out later that her parents often has her kids for shabbos or a random night a week.

Then there is the other women who says that she never asked for tzedaka to pay for camp every. She doesn't say that her parents paid for it every year.

The women who says that she never has a babysitter for her kids. Her siblings or mother often watches the kids.

I once asked a friend who works full time about how she deals with pesach and tishrei with the kids. She said I never made pesach, I just pack up and go to my ILs for pesach and sukkos.

Some people don't realize that they actually have HELP that others only WISH they could have or that they have to pay for.

Also all children are different. I recently watched 3 young kids on top of mine for a few evenings. Their ages were 2.5, 4 and 6. They were boys. Also one day last we I also watched a 10 year old boy on top of my kids too. The 10 year old was so demanding and difficult I sent him back to his mother after 1.5 hours. But the 3 young boys were so easy and a pleasure.

I am always upfront about the help I get paying for camp. If that is referring to me I take umbrage. I'm also not one of the posters in this thread who is bashing women you feel that they need day camp, and quite to the contrary.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 8:24 am

freidasima wrote:

Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?

And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.

Just plowing through the last few pages, but personally, I certainly don't hold the husband is the head of the family in the same sense you do. I absolutely do not hold that the husband has the last say!!! In fact, I hardly know anyone who holds that way.

This old form patriarchy reminds me of Christian submission ideology, with the husband as the head and the wife the help-meet. Sorry, that is NOT my definition of 'derech eretz and form'. Far from it.

I'm nearing forty and I have to say I know no one my age, frum or not, that believes the husband should have the last word. I certainly have never come across a home where the wife gets up every time her husband enters the room.

↑ freidasima ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 8:30 am

I'm also not a Harry Potter fan although for the sake of keeping this thread alive I'm willing to read up on him in Wikipedia so that I can sound like I know all the characters. Actually I saw part of one of the movies on TV and it seemed incredibly boring.

Back to topic. Ruchel I think it very much depends where you were living and how long a school day one had the 3 year olds in cheder for. In my father's shtetl there was not "school" the melamed taught in his home. When you were bar mitzva you went away to learn to a bigger place.

Pickle is definitely on to something because often we really don't have the whole story and posters who say "on their own" didn't have paid help but unpaid. Or parents paid for things etc. I have a friend with five whose daughter is pregnant with number five and my friend is furious. Her daughter has special needs kids, can't cope with what she has, and it all falls on my friend AND her 87 year old mother who ends up taking care of her great grandchildren. When my friend said "the difference was that I - meaning she - did it on her own - I reminded her that while she did it financially on her own, unlike her daughter who lives from handouts since she married an out of work shas BT, in her case her mother was a full time help to her....just as she (unwillingly) is to her daughter.

So yes, the "whole story" can often help.
I have always written that when my children were very young my parents, when my father a"h was alive, were incredibly helpful, living nearby. The problem was after my father was niftar and my mother became ill, it switched around and then, on top of my own kids, I have had to care for my mother, both physically and financially. but I'm OLD remember? And most of you young ladies have a long way to go before you will have to care for you elderly parents.

Back to kids and camp. How many of you did it alone? With no financial help from anyone, no tuition funds, no camp funds, no zedoko, no relatives helping and no presents?

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 8:41 am

kitov wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

So for those of you who like your husband to be the "boss", how does that work in practicality?

Your husband has veto power? If not, then what do you mean?

We reffer to "tatty" for a final decision when the kids have issues or dilemmas. But issues between the two of us, does get treated on an even communicating basis.

If issues between the two of you get treated on 'an even communicating basis', then tatty is not really the head, it's just a big act for the kids.

FS and others who claim the dh should have the ultimate final word (even if the woman can of course try to convince otherwise) - I, like Shabbatis, would like to know how this works practically. So your dh is a major halacha expert. So if he insists on sending to School X (say, a cheder without limudei chol) though you desperately want School Y (a great yeshiva with limudei chol), you would just give in? Compromise all your hopes for your kids futures because your dh's approach must be better by virtue of him being male? Frankly, I'm shocked.

Would you move cities just because your husband insisted? It wouldn't be an equal debate among equals; your husband would have the ultimate say where you should live? Again, wow.

And let's take a look at smaller day to day things. If dh insisted you wear socks, and you felt there was no need, would you? Because he is the head? Or if he insisted you wear a sheital, whereas you think a banadanna is more modest? Again, wow. Because on all the other threads, it seems many of you are preaching to women to stand up for their rights as an individual and as mothers of their children.

It actually seems to me that this whole patriarchy stance is lip service and that hardly anyone puts it to practice. Honestly, I would like to hear of situations where women just gave in to their husbands because they are men, even though they strongly opposed the decision.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 8:53 am

freidasima wrote:

Head of the household - no I don't believe that a household can have two heads just like I don't believe that a company can have two heads as a household IS a company. You need a "bottom line person". That doesn't mean that each adult doesn't have his and her expertiese, of course they do. And as for "how does it work", my husband is also very easygoing. He is happy with whatever he is served, I never remember him ever asking me to get him something if I was standing up and he was sitting unless he was very ill. I learned from him NOT to ask him to give me something but to make the effort to get up myself unless he was in the process of walking across the room to me and I had left something on the table that he could pick up literally "baderekh". But otherwise? Never

But a house needs one head like a company needs one person who makes the decisions. There has never been a decision where he hasn't consulted with me. And as he is an easygoing person very often it is a nominal "headship" as it goes something like "Daddy can we go to X today?" "Ask mommy, whatever mommy says, goes." Or "Mommy I need 200 shekel for X?" "First ask daddy what he thinks and then we will see".

I just quoted parts of your post. First, I want to say that I thoroughly disagree. A household is not a company. At any given time, there are a million enterprises in one household. And as others have said, usually the person who cares most about a certain enterprise has the final word. So if I care most about decorating, I can ultimately choose to paint the living room sky blue even though dh would have preferred cream. If he cares most about the car, he can choose which one to buy although I would have preferred another one.
If we both care a lot, then there is compromise, lots of compromise, I give in once, he gives in next time.

I think you were very lucky in that apparently you married someone who you agree with hashkafically, educationally, etc. - not only that, but you seem to rever his opinion. So in such a situation, it's pretty easy to say you are deferring to your dh, when actually his opinion most of the time doesn't seem to be so different than yours.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:12 am

small bean wrote:

I think it depends on the situation. Things like what school to send your kids to - I think is a decision you make together. Things like wearing socks, I would say if the husband says he wants you to - then you do.

My husband is the head of house - which means that if I don't know what to do - I ask him and what ever he says I do. for ex. I'm not sure when I want my girls to stop wearing short sleeves or I wasnt sure when to put them in skirts. so I ask my dh (happens to be - he didnt know either - so he asked our rav) but assuming he decided that at 4 they have to wear skirts, I would've switched them even if I thought at 3 or at 5... It also means that he can say in this house we are going to do x and we will all listen.

I think as a mother, we make all the small decisions by ourself. and im happy to give over the tough decisions to my husband as head of the household.

I have a totally different attitude. I want to be an active partner in those tough decisions, the decisions which shape the home. I think Akeret Habait doesn't mean that a woman just gets to choose which laundry detergent to use and what to serve for supper. Ikar Habayit is also things like chinuch, place of living, dress code, when and where to settle, discipline issues, etc.

And I don't think it's a matter of age. I know a lot of people in their sixties and seventies where the women were major movers and shakers in their household. Where the men would never have dreamed of pulling out the 'But I am the man' card. Even if in some of these homes the men technically got that lip service, be'fo-al (in practice) they had no more say than their wives.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:17 am

Table, I think a husband and wife who cannot decide can always ask a rav they both trust.

Chinuch: in the end, it is his mitsva. If really really we could not find a common ground, I assume the difference would still not be too huge as chinuch is one of the first things we discussed during shidduch. Too important. We both took raising our future kids very seriously lol
So yes, if in the end we can't find something pleasing us both on chinuch, I would trust him. Nothing prevents me from asking him to help me supplement whatever chol I want, btw. This topic makes me laugh as we are discussing it just now by sms LOL (dh has met one of his rabbanim today, who btw validated several choices I had bashed on this thread - and I didn't even tell dh to discuss them with him!).

A person can divorce if his or her spouse wanna move and they don't. I think it says about moving there is something more... all rabbanim would say to discuss it with your rav. Butt it is also a big thing to discuss pre marriage...

Tznius, some rabbanim hold it goes by maternal line, so husband would be out of the picture then. In any case it is also something to discuss BEFORE not after, and to see a rav for if needed.

Oh yeah, "but I am the man" would only bring laughter from me.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:26 am

Ruchel wrote:

Ruchel, not everyone has a rav they go to with personal questions. Certainly not in my circles.
And even those who do - they wouldn't necessarily agree on which rav to go to.
Most importantly, many people are ideologically opposed to going to a rav with such questions.

Things can be discussed premarriage, but circumstances change. Sometimes one or the other spouse become more or less frum, more or less modern, or suddenly starts to care about something they didn't before. According to others here, the dh gets to decide whether the wife wears stockings or not (see small bean above). That shocks me.

Chinuch is a huge issue. First, it's not so simple to 'supplement' chol. Kids have enough on their plates with regular school. You want to take a boy who finishes school at 6 and start teaching him math and English? Poor boy. He needs some rest and relaxation, no??? And if your dh wanted to send him to a place where they frown on boys playing ball past age 6, that would be OK with you too? Or what if it were the ohter way around, and you wanted the old-school cheder, and he wanted a place where there are baseball teams and computers alongside Torah study? You would just say ok?
A woman's input on this is of no less weight than a man's.

↑ freidasima ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:27 am

You bring up serious questions table, let me try to answer them in brief (ha! wishful thinking).

True, I married someone that is on my wavelength in most things. I wouldn't have married him otherwise! The first real date he told me his life story. The second I gave him the third degree about a million issues to get his answers including real practical nitty gritty issues. He thought I was nuts but answered everything as if I were the CIA and he was in detention! He said that taking yadin yadin is easier than answering my ins and outs. My father had taught me well. I told him better to answer to me and not to my father (this was not an "official shidduch" a friend from my work introduced us and at the time we were both still in school).

But, there are issues where we differ, and then we compromise. I have found and in many if not most cases he is right. Not "correct" as I know din pretty well, and we are of the same basic hashkofo. But that in the long term his preferences were better than many of mine. However in other things like "should I wear socks", hey, we already had this discussion, "women's sphere" "men's sphere". Men in my world don't interfere in a woman's sphere. Don't DARE. Because they married us in the first place so that we will deal with that sphere and they agree with our derekh otherwise they would have married someone else! It's a package deal.

I deal with the little things. The color of the living room wall, the furniture, the cooking, the cleaning, what I wear, what the kids wear, what HE wears, where we go on vacation (halevai! what vacation?), what we spend our money on, how much time we spend with our parents, with our friends, heck, even WHO our friends are sometimes, how we socialize, what we do when we socialize, what the domestic priorities are, how many kids we have, when we have those kids (remember in my shita women can do what the want in terms of BC as long as it isn't discussed with the husband), how they are spaced, and where they go to gan or maon, whether we have a metapelet and who she is, who the babysitter is, how often we do wash, how often we eat pancakes, and what we eat for yuntif and who we spend yuntif with and who our guests are.

You know. The little things.
Men take care of the big things. Like world peace. You know.
When it comes to chinuch of kids, I deal with the girls, he deals with the boys. If he disagrees with me about the girls we discuss it and he tries to convince me, if he does, fine. If he doesn't and feels very strongly about something I give in. Always. Because he really knows more and is smarter. If I think he is making a VERY VERY VERY big mistake then I tell him, privately and he knows that when Freidasima says "Yehuda you are making a VERY VERY VERY bigmistake (one word)" it means to wait. think again. and maybe there if something in what Freidasima ways (oy vavoy if not). Trial and error in every marriage but this works in ours.

When it comes to boys chinuch anyhow we are on the same page. We actually did argue over what to do with our younger son in terms of high school, and when things looked problematic it was DH who realized first that we would have to compromise with some of our convictions and change his schools to something else already at the beginning. And he was right. I wasn't convinced but here I relied on him. He's a man, he knows boys education better than I do. Heck he's in chinuch isn't he??

And he was right.

We still differ in opinion totally about a few serious issues. It makes for interesting household discussions that never end. We agree in politics. We agree pretty much in religion. He believes in a few things (or rather does'nt believe) that I don't want to hear about. I scream (no I don't scream, I sing) APIKORSUS goes a long way, when he starts and then when he shows me mekoros I get really sick and say "I'm a lady, daati kala, I don't want to know" and I go my merry way still believeing that the Ribono Shel Olam has a long white beard like Santa Claus, you know that guy who says Ho ho ho....

Yeah well.

But it's not a game, it's not "lip service". Because I do believe that a family is a corporation and a shidduch and marriage is a business deal. The flip side is that you get love and sks combined with someone you adore (yahoo! Let's hear it for marriage!) but you also get a combined income (in our case) four hands instead of two, a framework in which to bear and raise children etc. And therefore you need a head of a corporation that people can turn to.

Just remember the rules. He deals with the biggies. The national debt. World peace. Bringing Moshiach. Olam habo. Boys chinuch. We deal with the little things, like everything else.

Capish?

↑ small bean ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:29 am

[quote][quote="Tablepoetry"][quote="small bean"]I think it depends on the situation. Things like what school to send your kids to - I think is a decision you make together. Things like wearing socks, I would say if the husband says he wants you to - then you do.

My husband is the head of house - which means that if I don't know what to do - I ask him and what ever he says I do. for ex. I'm not sure when I want my girls to stop wearing short sleeves or I wasnt sure when to put them in skirts. so I ask my dh (happens to be - he didnt know either - so he asked our rav) but assuming he decided that at 4 they have to wear skirts, I would've switched them even if I thought at 3 or at 5... It also means that he can say in this house we are going to do x and we will all listen.

I think as a mother, we make all the small decisions by ourself. and[b] im happy to give over the tough decisions to my husband as head of the household[/b].[/quote]

I have a totally different attitude. I want to be an active partner in those tough decisions, the decisions which shape the home. I think Akeret Habait doesn't mean that a woman just gets to choose which laundry detergent to use and what to serve for supper. Ikar Habayit is also things like chinuch, place of living, dress code, when and where to settle, discipline issues, etc.

And I don't think it's a matter of age. I know a lot of people in their sixties and seventies where the women were major movers and shakers in their household. Where the men would never have dreamed of pulling out the 'But I am the man' card. Even if in some of these homes the men technically got that lip service, be'fo-al (in practice) they had no more say than their wives.[/quote][/quote]

I don't think a woman can't give over her opinion. I think woman choose more than supper and clothing. Actually, when it comes to picking a school for my dd - dh and I both discuss it, but in things relating to dresscode and such, I have no clue and neither does he so as head of the house he decides. On things relating to going away for yom tov or vacation, I usually decide and let him know.. him being the head of the household means he has to tie loose ends together, make sure everyone is provided for and major decisions are made. I'm pretty much on the same page as my dh and usually have no problem with any decision he makes.

I guess I'm similiar to FS in that I hold my dh's opinions and decisions with great importance. I trust him completely that his decisions are the right ones.

I don't think this has to do with age and my dh never says but I'm the man.. I put it on him.

↑ Barbara ↓

Mon, Aug 01 2011, 9:35 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

small bean wrote:

We talk about the tough issues. Discuss them. Listen to each other's points of view. Then reach a decision. Together.

If one happens to make a decision without the other, we will never question it in front of kid, although we may discuss it privately.

Of course in these discussions, we may yield to the person with the greater knowledge or interest. But that's out of respect for one another, not deference due to gender.

And FTR, my parents were married for 50 years, so you can do the math re their age, and they reached decisions the same way.