freidasima - I am raising my hand. I feel like you - my husband is the head of this family and I wouldn't want it any other way. I directly manage about a quarter of a dozen staff members at work; I don't need or want to have authority at home. Nor would it be appropriate - I don't know a fraction of his knowledge in Torah/halacha (as it should be; he has been learning in kollel b"H for nearly a decade not counting all the years of full time learning before marriage).
OK. On the subject of kovea ittim. Firstly -I GET it. Working men have a huge balancing act. I work full time in a typical job - deadlines, bosses, etc. and although not physically taxing, it can be mentally draining. You really need to unwind after a day in the office. Partner demands, client demands, gov't deadlines, getting your charge/billable hours in, managing staff, meeting continuing professional education credits, etc. etc. etc. Which is why I can NEVER judge a working man for not having the koach to go out to learn again at night (plus, he has a yetzer hara NOT to go out that I can't even relate to. I can just relate to the business part of his day). Which is why I am so tremendously machshiv the working men who go out to learn at night (and their wives). My husband runs a night seder program in one of the shuls for working baale battim and the steady attendance is beautiful. E-mails come out before the legal holidays - when working men in typical jobs have off - regarding organized shiurim. THINK OF THE WHOLE DAF YOMI MOVEMENT - the typical daf yomi learner is the working baalebas.
We have it "easy" - my husband b"H learns in kollel all day and comes home at 6:45 refreshed and vigorated and yes ALIVE after a day of learning. Full of energy to spend time with the kids and bedtime and bathtime before going out for night seder/ Maariv/ learning some more. And "people" always think kollel is not fair to the women who have to work. I think it's the exact opposite (or can be, I don't want to generalize).
Can I also just add something that I think was the topic of another thread (but hey, this thread seems to be anything goes) - making your husband lunch to take to work. I found the responses surprising. Don't people who love each other look out for each other and want to make life easier for each other? Isn't it normal for one spouse to be sitting on the couch or at the table and the other one to say - "can I get you anything?" Isn't it normal that if one spouse is on the way to bring parnassah for the family the other asks, "can I do anything to make your life easier?" Who cares if it's 50-50 or that "s/he needs to help." I have never heard of a smoothly running home in such rigid business-like roles. What about; "how can we make this other person's life easier," even though yes, they techinically can open that can of tuna themselves.
I remember a post once in the shalom bayis section, a long vent or rant or whatever and in the middle of it all was a small detail about him asking her to get him a peach. The responses were: "tell him to get his own peach." Shouldn't it make us happy to make things easier for our spouse? Isn't it the "small" things that move our relationships through the inevitable bumps and stresses in the road? WHY ARE WE SO WORRIED ABOUT BEING "TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF"?
So for those of you who like your husband to be the "boss", how does that work in practicality?
Your husband has veto power? If not, then what do you mean?
We reffer to "tatty" for a final decision when the kids have issues or dilemmas. But issues between the two of us, does get treated on an even communicating basis.
What if it's an issue you know more about? Or care more about? You still deferred? That seems strange. Does that include discipline for kids when he's not home?
What if it's an issue you know more about? Or care more about? You still deferred? That seems strange. Does that include discipline for kids when he's not home?
Yes, I an call him up in front of the kids and ask how he thinks we should handle that particular situation. I give my dh the utmost respect, and bh, he returns the favor by pointing out to the kids all the stuff I do for them and for the house. My kids know we are on the same page, but tatty has the last word,m and I'll agree most of the time.
What if it's an issue you know more about? Or care more about? You still deferred? That seems strange. Does that include discipline for kids when he's not home?
Hmm. You made me think about this. Halachic matters - he has total say, although I will definately make known any relevant circumstances/thoughts before he looks up in sefarim or ask a shayla whatever the case may be. In general I find my husband to be very grounded and balanced and strongly rooted hashkafically. So when we talk over something I usually find that I agree with his thought process (even though I couldn't articulate it myself or was confused initially). As such, I do usually let him have the last word on things like chinuch, etc. [Even as innocuous as a thread on this site - I'll tell him I see both sides to an issue and he'll think a minute and say his opinion and I find I usually agree with him.]
So it's not an authoritative position of power, but one that I just naturally hand over because he's much more thought out. Discipline matters - of course I use my own judgement when he's not around or when I'm dealing with things, but he is in general more of a softie with the kids. Which I sometimes agree w/ and sometimes not. One thing I do impress upon him is that it is important not to say things that we don't know if we will be follow through (either punishment or something good).
On the other hand, there are many areas where he either doesn't have a strong opinion on or knows mean more to me so let's me have the final say. One was naming our kids- he basically let me choose the names for both; didn't have strong opinion and really felt that I carried them and waited for them so it meant more to me. Another thing is planning our small upcoming vacation - he wants me to choose what I'll find more relaxing because this will be a break from my busy work schedule.
Everyone has their lot in life. Its unbelievable that people can sit here a say "well if I can do it then you can".
Nobody gives the WHOLE STORY..... NOBODY.
The woman who says that she takes care of her kids everyday and does it alone. Then you find out later that her parents often has her kids for shabbos or a random night a week.
Then there is the other women who says that she never asked for tzedaka to pay for camp every. She doesn't say that her parents paid for it every year.
The women who says that she never has a babysitter for her kids. Her siblings or mother often watches the kids.
I once asked a friend who works full time about how she deals with pesach and tishrei with the kids. She said I never made pesach, I just pack up and go to my ILs for pesach and sukkos.
Some people don't realize that they actually have HELP that others only WISH they could have or that they have to pay for.
Also all children are different. I recently watched 3 young kids on top of mine for a few evenings. Their ages were 2.5, 4 and 6. They were boys. Also one day last we I also watched a 10 year old boy on top of my kids too. The 10 year old was so demanding and difficult I sent him back to his mother after 1.5 hours. But the 3 young boys were so easy and a pleasure.
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
There are two heads to this family and yes it is possible. We aren't a physical being, we aren't a car, and yes the idea of something "with two heads" is available in the world.
We work together. We might have different sphere's where one person's input is more important than the other because of knowledge, but that's about it.
Halacha I differ to him because he does know more. In other areas he differs to me.
What is strange about that? It is normal.
So yes, there are TWO heads and it works. If we are really at loggerheads we can ask a third party for advice.
The women who says that she never has a babysitter for her kids. Her siblings or mother often watches the kids.
First of all, too true everything you said in your post.
Secondly, my grandmother a'h once chastised my mother a"h for having babysitters, insisting she never dad.
"That's because we always had someone living with us!" my mom explained.
Often we don't realize the "goods" we have that others don't because it is normal to our lives.
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
There are two heads to this family and yes it is possible. We aren't a physical being, we aren't a car, and yes the idea of something "with two heads" is available in the world.
We work together. We might have different sphere's where one person's input is more important than the other because of knowledge, but that's about it.
Halacha I differ to him because he does know more. In other areas he differs to me.
What is strange about that? It is normal.
So yes, there are TWO heads and it works. If we are really at loggerheads we can ask a third party for advice.
I think the word you want is "defer". To "differ" means to disagree. Maybe that's also true...
How much learning is needed torah learning for a man? I think that we might be talking about 2 different things. Lubavitchers even single women learn CHITAS. That days chumash, tehillim and tanya (chassidus). It is broken up so that its completed every year. Plus before davening in lubavitch there is shiur, some men might not during the week but forsure before davening on shabbos.
So are you talking about learning on top of this? Or is this considered enough learning for all you ladies. This is standard for all working men in our community.
What really confuses me is when women consider torah learning for anyone but men a luxury?
That being a SAHM is a luxury?
A women resting after birth a luxury?
Covering your hair in the standard of your community a luxury?
I still dont understand how you can equate sahm and learning torah as a luxury?
as far as I know, there is no chiyuv for a woman to learn torah.
your hair has to be covered - what does your community have to do with it... what does it matter how everyone around you covers your hair. and if you are going to say you ar lubavitch and therefor must wear a shaitel - there are all kinds of shaitels, you can wear one that costs $30
where does it say in the torah that resting after birth is a must? I don't know how you can compare these things to torah.
I think that any minute that the husband has he should be learning. I personally think a working husband can learn an hour before davening in the morning and at least another hour at night before or after maariv... but I don't know exactly what their obligation is and I dont really think it's my business bec I'm a woman and don't take it upon myself to make sure the men are doing their jobs.
Wow! Sometimes a post is made just to justify being here.
The most common fallacy in Judaism: there is no chiuv for women to learn Torah.
There is no chiuv for women to learn lishma, that means for the sake of the learning only in all of our available time as there is for a man. That is the only difference. In Hilchos Taqlmud Torah we learn that the ikkar of learning is to "knowhow the deed is to be done", practical halacha for every day life. So the general assumption is that a woman needs to go to shiurim in TM, hilchos Shabbat, LH, kashrut and please don't forget tznius. That assumption is wrong.
A woman must know how to properly perform all mitzvot that she is chayav. In a practical sense concerning mitzvot applicable to all Jews today (not kohen, King or only with a Beis HaMikdash) the difference between us and the men is less than 10 mitzvot. And of course let's start at the beginning.
The first mitzva is know or have emuna in HaShem. There is disagreement in what this is but we are chayav today 24/7. What is emuna and what is its connection to knowing. Who do we have this knowledge/emuna to? #2 to believe in yichud HaShem. What is that? If you think it just means we are different than the xtians and Hindus because we have only one G-d then you have not begun to learn a mitzva d'oraisa that you are required to do (no less than Shabbos, TM or LH).
Let's keep going. The very next mitzva we are chayav is ahavat HaShem. Have you learned that one to the same extent as TM or LH. What about #4, to fear HaShem. The very least we have to understand the basic commandment. What is love or fear? Who is HaShem? How do we make ourselves love or fear HaShem as commanded?
Think about this all chared l'devar HaShem. When a girl turns 12 she is immediately, at that moment chayav to perform these 4 mitzvot 24/7. These are not z'man gramma and women are chayav. When your dd (or you yourself) turned 12 did you have any idea what you were chayav? A BM boy or girl has to know everything that is she is chayav then when they 12/13 and a day. There is no chiuv to memorize Rashis or the order of the shevatim in the midbar. This is done to fill up time to cover a major failing. FT learning can come not only at the financial expense to the tzibbur and the wife's health. But the real korban is the wife's own halachic obligations. She is also a Jew who needs to serve HaShem. No, this is a nice, holy thing to do because I and dh agreed cannot cancel the wife's obligations. HaShem has made differences because of our differences from men and roles. But some basic obligations cannot be canceled.
BTW, this slippery slope has transferred to boys (who someday will be men as well) in shitot like Zilberman and its look alikes. Lets sing all day, call it learning and the ikkar of Talmud Torah, halacha l'maaseh, is almost or totally ignored.Why do they like it so much? It is much more fun than learning to keep all the details of halacha.
Now I know why an old lady like me is in a camp thread.
I thought twice about saying this but I can take it. The reason why girls don't know their obligations is 1) Who will teach them, their teachers didn't learn either. 2)If a girl has all of the limudei kodesh she needs how will she get all of the limud chol she needs to go to sem/college and support her dh in kollel. I don't know if all have seen it but I saw in print that a woman was created to be just a "horse and buggy" to carry her dh to his avoda of FT learning. That her avoda is insignificant. Sorry and respect to the revered who propagate this, if a woman learned she would put up with a lot less.
Last edited by Imaonwheels on Mon, Aug 01 2011, 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Shabbat, you don't hold that the father is the head of the family and the head of the household? That doesn't mean that the mother doesn't have an equally important role but there can't be two heads you know. So who is the head? Who is, for the children, the "final instanzia" as we say in Hebrew?
Again that doesn't mean that the father doesn't consult with the mother and if the mother is smart, it doesn't mean that she isn't the one guiding her husband in some or even all of his decisions! But at least "klapei chutz", to the outside and to the children, shouldn't the father/husband be the "head of the household" - Ba'al habayis as they say, with the wife being the Akeres Habayis, not housewife but Ikar habayis? The mainstay of the home?
And this has nothing to do with her having a full time top notch career as I do! It's just a sense of derekh eretz and form.
There are two heads to this family and yes it is possible. We aren't a physical being, we aren't a car, and yes the idea of something "with two heads" is available in the world.
We work together. We might have different sphere's where one person's input is more important than the other because of knowledge, but that's about it.
Halacha I differ to him because he does know more. In other areas he differs to me.
What is strange about that? It is normal.
So yes, there are TWO heads and it works. If we are really at loggerheads we can ask a third party for advice.
I think the word you want is "defer". To "differ" means to disagree. Maybe that's also true...
Hey you're right! What can I say. Morning brain, coffee hadn't yet kicked in.
Oh and to the poster who wrote that my list of things that I do or other friends of mine do on a daily basis doesn't include "learning torah" - here's An a head's up. That was a list for WOMEN. And as far as I know women aren't required to "learn torah". Not on a daily basis and not at all.
If you want a list for men, well that's a different story but that wasn't what I was writing.
Shouldn't it make us happy to make things easier for our spouse? Isn't it the "small" things that move our relationships through the inevitable bumps and stresses in the road? WHY ARE WE SO WORRIED ABOUT BEING "TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF"?
